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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
7mm Berger 180 Hybrid twist rate help
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<blockquote data-quote="Kiwi Nate" data-source="post: 465404" data-attributes="member: 8533"><p>I haven't used the Hybrid sorry but there is something I want to say as I believe twist rate is sometimes mis-understood. </p><p></p><p>The faster you drive a bullet, the less twist you need. Those 1-8 or 1-8.5 twist rate recomendations on the boxes of Sierra and on the Berger website are well suited to the 7mm-08 but not the magnums. A 1:9 twist is optimum for the current 180gr VLD in the magnums however Remington's Sendero 7mm Rem Mag, with its 1-9.25 twist shoots the 180 grain VLD very well. Sweets spots from the 26" barrel occur at around 2925 to 2950fps.</p><p></p><p>The trouble with the fast twist magnums we have, is that Berger have had to strengthen their projectiles to eliminate mid air bullet blow ups and other finnicky problems. The result, is that as time goes by, you will find the Berger less and less useful as a game bullet due to more frequent pin hole wounding. Berger perhaps could have done something towards studying the relevance of twist rate, versus the fact that hunters will mostly be using magnums rather than the smaller sevens typically seen in competition. Then again, its easy for me to pass judgement in hind sight, I have no idea what its like for them, the pressures they are under. </p><p></p><p>The twist rates some people use today are fast, the cartridges are getting faster, people are adding more grooves to their rifling, freebore is getting longer which is creating excessive yaw and the bullet makers are having to make bullets to handle all of these factors. The only way to make a true seperation between the VLD hunting bullet and the VLD target in the coming years, will be the addition of a polymer tip on the huting bullet to aid fragmentation. This will require a complete design change, a lot of money and a lot of time on the part of Berger.</p><p></p><p>I was quite saddened when I heard that Berger had made a .338 VLD capable of fragmentation on light to medium weight game, only to hear that the design was pulled due to incidence of mid air bullet blow up. The .338 bullet was then toughened up and re-released.</p><p></p><p> I have seen no reports from Berger as to the use of the new Hybrid as a hunting bullet. The word hunting simply doesn't appear anywhere. The only way we will know its merits, is to use it on game. It will most likely be very good on tough animals but on lighter bodied game, the 168 grain bullet might end up being the way to go due to better target resistance to initiate fragmentation. If the 180 grain is to be used on light game, it may have to be annealed as I have described here (hand loading): </p><p><a href="https://secure.zeald.com/ballisticstudies/Knowledge%20Base/7mm%20Remington%20Magnum?mv_pc=2984" target="_blank">https://secure.zeald.com/ballisticstudies/Knowledge%20Base/7mm%20Remington%20Magnum?mv_pc=2984</a></p><p></p><p>Time will tell. I certainly don't envy Berger, it must be a difficult business. I am a great fan of their projectiles but I fear that such issues as fast twist rates versus magnum velocities is having or has the potential to have- a detrimental impact on their business.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Kiwi Nate, post: 465404, member: 8533"] I haven't used the Hybrid sorry but there is something I want to say as I believe twist rate is sometimes mis-understood. The faster you drive a bullet, the less twist you need. Those 1-8 or 1-8.5 twist rate recomendations on the boxes of Sierra and on the Berger website are well suited to the 7mm-08 but not the magnums. A 1:9 twist is optimum for the current 180gr VLD in the magnums however Remington's Sendero 7mm Rem Mag, with its 1-9.25 twist shoots the 180 grain VLD very well. Sweets spots from the 26" barrel occur at around 2925 to 2950fps. The trouble with the fast twist magnums we have, is that Berger have had to strengthen their projectiles to eliminate mid air bullet blow ups and other finnicky problems. The result, is that as time goes by, you will find the Berger less and less useful as a game bullet due to more frequent pin hole wounding. Berger perhaps could have done something towards studying the relevance of twist rate, versus the fact that hunters will mostly be using magnums rather than the smaller sevens typically seen in competition. Then again, its easy for me to pass judgement in hind sight, I have no idea what its like for them, the pressures they are under. The twist rates some people use today are fast, the cartridges are getting faster, people are adding more grooves to their rifling, freebore is getting longer which is creating excessive yaw and the bullet makers are having to make bullets to handle all of these factors. The only way to make a true seperation between the VLD hunting bullet and the VLD target in the coming years, will be the addition of a polymer tip on the huting bullet to aid fragmentation. This will require a complete design change, a lot of money and a lot of time on the part of Berger. I was quite saddened when I heard that Berger had made a .338 VLD capable of fragmentation on light to medium weight game, only to hear that the design was pulled due to incidence of mid air bullet blow up. The .338 bullet was then toughened up and re-released. I have seen no reports from Berger as to the use of the new Hybrid as a hunting bullet. The word hunting simply doesn't appear anywhere. The only way we will know its merits, is to use it on game. It will most likely be very good on tough animals but on lighter bodied game, the 168 grain bullet might end up being the way to go due to better target resistance to initiate fragmentation. If the 180 grain is to be used on light game, it may have to be annealed as I have described here (hand loading): [URL="https://secure.zeald.com/ballisticstudies/Knowledge%20Base/7mm%20Remington%20Magnum?mv_pc=2984"]https://secure.zeald.com/ballisticstudies/Knowledge%20Base/7mm%20Remington%20Magnum?mv_pc=2984[/URL] Time will tell. I certainly don't envy Berger, it must be a difficult business. I am a great fan of their projectiles but I fear that such issues as fast twist rates versus magnum velocities is having or has the potential to have- a detrimental impact on their business. [/QUOTE]
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7mm Berger 180 Hybrid twist rate help
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