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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
7mm Allen Mag test rifle finished.....
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<blockquote data-quote="Richard338" data-source="post: 76381" data-attributes="member: 1537"><p>BigBore,</p><p>OK I found some references. I can't find anyone who treats internal ballistics as a heat pump with no gaseous combustion products. The references I will list below detail a complex mixture of pressure producing reaction products. In fact one is a patent application to use double-base propellants as a gas-generator for fire extinguishers.</p><p>It seems well established that combustion of propellants produces large amounts of various gasses.</p><p>This was my original intuition that you kept flatly discarding while saying "the chemists say..". I told you that I was a chemist, but you just kept stating that it is a simple heat pump and disregarding anything that anyone said to the contrary. If you still believe it is a simple heat pump then can you:</p><p>1) tell me exactly how you think it works. Have you done a back of the envelope calc on the volumes, temps and pressures (using the ideal gas law)?</p><p>2) Who are the chemists that told you that?</p><p>3) What do you think of the references I list below? I remember now that one ref I already gave you (Gun propulsion tech) covers many details of the combustion process such as grain geometry and chemical composition.</p><p></p><p>Reaction products of propellants and explosives. Volk, F.; Bathelt, H.; Jakob, R. Fraunhofer Inst., Pfinztal-Berghausen, Fed. Rep. Ger. International Annual Conference of ICT (1988), 19th(Combust. Detonation Phenom.), 13/1-13/25. CODEN: IACIEQ ISSN: 0722-4087. Journal written in German. CAN 112:201692 AN 1990:201692 CAPLUS </p><p></p><p>Abstract</p><p></p><p>Mass spectrometry was used to study the combustion products of single-, double-, and triple-base propellants. High contents of NO along with H, N, CO, CO2, H2O, CH4, and N2O were obsd. in the combustion products of single- and double-base propellants, this indicating that the combustion conditions were nonequil. The amt. of NO in the combustion products of triple-base propellants was much lower than the amt. calcd. from the nitrate ester content. Nitramine-contg. propellants yielded a very high HCN content along with NO and other gases. The gas compn. and explosion heat in the low-pressure region were compared with data obtained in a pressure bomb. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Calculation of thermodynamic parameters of combustion products of propellants under constant volume conditions. Suceska, Muhamed. Brodarski Institut - Marine Res. Special Technologies, Zagreb, Croatia. Kemija u Industriji (1998), 47(4), 151-163. CODEN: KJUIAR ISSN: 0022-9830. Journal written in Croatian. CAN 128:310152 AN 1998:316498 CAPLUS </p><p></p><p>Double-base propellants for gas generating compositions for expelling Halon-replacement fire extinguishers. Neidert, Jamie B.; Black, Robert E. (USA). U.S. Pat. Appl. Publ. (2002), 8 pp. CODEN: USXXCO US 20020007886 A1 20020124 Patent written in English. Application: US 99-370171 19990809. CAN 136:137127 AN 2002:72635 CAPLUS </p><p></p><p></p><p>Reaction products of nitrocellulose and nitramine containing propellants. Volk, F. Fraunhofer Institut Chemische Technologie, Pfinztal, Germany. Proceedings of the International Pyrotechnics Seminar (1996), 22nd 717-724. CODEN: PPYSD7 ISSN: 0270-1898. Journal written in English. CAN 125:146438 AN 1996:508416 CAPLUS</p><p></p><p></p><p>Relation of flame temperatures to propellant combustion products compositions. Davidchuk, E. L.; Mal'tsev, V. M.; Margolin, A. D.; Petrov, Yu. M.; Ryabikov, O. B. Inst. Khim. Fiz., Moscow, USSR. Fizika Goreniya i Vzryva (1977), 13(1), 132-5. CODEN: FGVZA7 ISSN: 0430-6228. Journal written in Russian. CAN 86:192051 AN 1977:192051 CAPLUS</p><p></p><p></p><p>Grune, D.; Aulinger, F.; Zeller, A. Study of the reaction products of double-base and triple-base powder propellants after combustion in the high-pressure bomb followed by rapid expansion: comparison of theoretical and experimental values. Report (1986), (ISL-CO-252/86; Order No. PB88-146972), 26 pp. CAN 109:233662 AN 1988:633662 CAPLUS</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Richard338, post: 76381, member: 1537"] BigBore, OK I found some references. I can't find anyone who treats internal ballistics as a heat pump with no gaseous combustion products. The references I will list below detail a complex mixture of pressure producing reaction products. In fact one is a patent application to use double-base propellants as a gas-generator for fire extinguishers. It seems well established that combustion of propellants produces large amounts of various gasses. This was my original intuition that you kept flatly discarding while saying "the chemists say..". I told you that I was a chemist, but you just kept stating that it is a simple heat pump and disregarding anything that anyone said to the contrary. If you still believe it is a simple heat pump then can you: 1) tell me exactly how you think it works. Have you done a back of the envelope calc on the volumes, temps and pressures (using the ideal gas law)? 2) Who are the chemists that told you that? 3) What do you think of the references I list below? I remember now that one ref I already gave you (Gun propulsion tech) covers many details of the combustion process such as grain geometry and chemical composition. Reaction products of propellants and explosives. Volk, F.; Bathelt, H.; Jakob, R. Fraunhofer Inst., Pfinztal-Berghausen, Fed. Rep. Ger. International Annual Conference of ICT (1988), 19th(Combust. Detonation Phenom.), 13/1-13/25. CODEN: IACIEQ ISSN: 0722-4087. Journal written in German. CAN 112:201692 AN 1990:201692 CAPLUS Abstract Mass spectrometry was used to study the combustion products of single-, double-, and triple-base propellants. High contents of NO along with H, N, CO, CO2, H2O, CH4, and N2O were obsd. in the combustion products of single- and double-base propellants, this indicating that the combustion conditions were nonequil. The amt. of NO in the combustion products of triple-base propellants was much lower than the amt. calcd. from the nitrate ester content. Nitramine-contg. propellants yielded a very high HCN content along with NO and other gases. The gas compn. and explosion heat in the low-pressure region were compared with data obtained in a pressure bomb. Calculation of thermodynamic parameters of combustion products of propellants under constant volume conditions. Suceska, Muhamed. Brodarski Institut - Marine Res. Special Technologies, Zagreb, Croatia. Kemija u Industriji (1998), 47(4), 151-163. CODEN: KJUIAR ISSN: 0022-9830. Journal written in Croatian. CAN 128:310152 AN 1998:316498 CAPLUS Double-base propellants for gas generating compositions for expelling Halon-replacement fire extinguishers. Neidert, Jamie B.; Black, Robert E. (USA). U.S. Pat. Appl. Publ. (2002), 8 pp. CODEN: USXXCO US 20020007886 A1 20020124 Patent written in English. Application: US 99-370171 19990809. CAN 136:137127 AN 2002:72635 CAPLUS Reaction products of nitrocellulose and nitramine containing propellants. Volk, F. Fraunhofer Institut Chemische Technologie, Pfinztal, Germany. Proceedings of the International Pyrotechnics Seminar (1996), 22nd 717-724. CODEN: PPYSD7 ISSN: 0270-1898. Journal written in English. CAN 125:146438 AN 1996:508416 CAPLUS Relation of flame temperatures to propellant combustion products compositions. Davidchuk, E. L.; Mal'tsev, V. M.; Margolin, A. D.; Petrov, Yu. M.; Ryabikov, O. B. Inst. Khim. Fiz., Moscow, USSR. Fizika Goreniya i Vzryva (1977), 13(1), 132-5. CODEN: FGVZA7 ISSN: 0430-6228. Journal written in Russian. CAN 86:192051 AN 1977:192051 CAPLUS Grune, D.; Aulinger, F.; Zeller, A. Study of the reaction products of double-base and triple-base powder propellants after combustion in the high-pressure bomb followed by rapid expansion: comparison of theoretical and experimental values. Report (1986), (ISL-CO-252/86; Order No. PB88-146972), 26 pp. CAN 109:233662 AN 1988:633662 CAPLUS [/QUOTE]
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