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Extreme Long Range Hunting & Shooting (ELR)
6.5 PRC for Extreme Long Range Hunting?
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<blockquote data-quote="johnlittletree" data-source="post: 1531680" data-attributes="member: 105653"><p>You reasoning is sound. That said we have seen cartridges that should have been a hit with hunters fail to win in the market place history is full of them.</p><p></p><p>My take is not that I hate new cartridges rather that they should do something statically significant. Most of these newer cartridges really are not worth the time and effort to change over too them because the margin of return is not there.</p><p></p><p>You do not need a short fat case to kill an Elk. If people are purchasing short actions that is really stupid thing to do unless you specifically intend to short-short cartridges. </p><p></p><p>So on the short action it is not my fault that people are so ignorant of actual science, materials and design. Thinking that a short action is stiffer where it matters is just plain wrong. 95% of the "as seen on tv" items would not sell so well if the public in America especially was not so ignorant and poorly educated. A library card is your friend. Nothing aft of the looking lugs matter's in terms of "rigidity" If we cut off everything aft of the locking lugs and installed a interrupted thread canon breech lock the rifle does not magically shrink it's groups. It is nothing more than propaganda we are not attempting to rest a bending moment it is a thrust in line with the action we are attempt to manage. I remember when gun writers started spewing that non-sense in magazines in the 1980's and they never offered any science to back it up. Again nothing aft of the locking lugs matters at all unless you intend to use your receiver to support heavy loads at each end as a stressed member in some way that we do not use rifles. </p><p></p><p>Essentially the 6.5 PRC is just novelty as is a good number of cartridges for the reasons I specified earlier pressure, powder chemistry and ancient barrel steel used still. </p><p></p><p>The PRC is really just a Ruger 375 case necked down to 6.5 that is not really much development. It has a grain or 2 less capacity than the 300 H&H case that Weatherby used to make his now infamous 300 Weatherby Mag in 1944. </p><p></p><p>So the other day I went to 3 different sites that sell the reloading components. None of them had any 6.5 PRC all of them where sold out. Yet I was able to order 8mm Mauser brass and bullets which is kind of comical in a sense. </p><p></p><p>You are 100% correct about the magazine box limiting your loads. The magazine box is huge as is neck limitations and OAL cartridge length. Often you are eating into powder capacity to fit a magazine. On top of that if it feeds from a magazine you can not set the bullet seating death properly to kiss the lands so you end up having to make a huge jump which is anything but "precision" or "accuracy".</p><p></p><p>Of course you have the "me too" mentality in the industry so even though it is a fools folly Weatherby has a 6.5 Weatherby which makes no sense at all dropping down from a 30cal (.308) projectile to a 6.5 (.264) projectile offer's nothing to say a 1000m Elk Kill. In fact a 190gr. to 230gr. projectile in a 300 Weatherby is prob. as good as it get's for long range hunting on medium and large game at long ranges. </p><p></p><p>I will say it again other than weight and handiness anyone that thinks a short action is in any way more inherently accurate is only demonstrating how much marketing they have absorbed in the last 3 decades from magazines. It is just like all the people that put those stupid "Vornado" things in their car or trucks intake duct work thinking it would improve fuel economy or putting cheap, weak, permanent magnets on the fuel line thinking again it would improve fuel economy those are in the same category as shorter action is stiffer aft of the locking lugs so it must produce better accuracy! </p><p></p><p>Unless you are in the reamer, die, rifle building, ammo make or brass making industries 95% of the cartridges designed and brought to market over the last 30 years are nothing but a distraction from a hunting stand point. </p><p></p><p>Well if you rule out people buying the wrong action for the job they want to do again most of this conversation need not happen. </p><p></p><p>I would have to say that 3000fps is not a must have for long range hunting that is comical if one looks at the last 100 years of cartridge development and long range hunting. Also the best way to get to 3000+fps is not in a short action. That is like selecting Helen Keller for your shooting team it is not going to make any sense and will only serve to hinder you! </p><p></p><p>All of the VLD bullets in 6.5 are questionable to use on large game because the bullet designs do not hold together well. All of the bullets that do work great on large game are not VLD. That is true in 6mm/243 as well the best bullets that hold together well tend to be soft points with spitzer shape not VLD's. I can still remember when people tried to use the 22-250 on Elk long ago and it was a disaster. When you get a huge number of people doing something foolish it makes it common practice not best practice!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="johnlittletree, post: 1531680, member: 105653"] You reasoning is sound. That said we have seen cartridges that should have been a hit with hunters fail to win in the market place history is full of them. My take is not that I hate new cartridges rather that they should do something statically significant. Most of these newer cartridges really are not worth the time and effort to change over too them because the margin of return is not there. You do not need a short fat case to kill an Elk. If people are purchasing short actions that is really stupid thing to do unless you specifically intend to short-short cartridges. So on the short action it is not my fault that people are so ignorant of actual science, materials and design. Thinking that a short action is stiffer where it matters is just plain wrong. 95% of the "as seen on tv" items would not sell so well if the public in America especially was not so ignorant and poorly educated. A library card is your friend. Nothing aft of the looking lugs matter's in terms of "rigidity" If we cut off everything aft of the locking lugs and installed a interrupted thread canon breech lock the rifle does not magically shrink it's groups. It is nothing more than propaganda we are not attempting to rest a bending moment it is a thrust in line with the action we are attempt to manage. I remember when gun writers started spewing that non-sense in magazines in the 1980's and they never offered any science to back it up. Again nothing aft of the locking lugs matters at all unless you intend to use your receiver to support heavy loads at each end as a stressed member in some way that we do not use rifles. Essentially the 6.5 PRC is just novelty as is a good number of cartridges for the reasons I specified earlier pressure, powder chemistry and ancient barrel steel used still. The PRC is really just a Ruger 375 case necked down to 6.5 that is not really much development. It has a grain or 2 less capacity than the 300 H&H case that Weatherby used to make his now infamous 300 Weatherby Mag in 1944. So the other day I went to 3 different sites that sell the reloading components. None of them had any 6.5 PRC all of them where sold out. Yet I was able to order 8mm Mauser brass and bullets which is kind of comical in a sense. You are 100% correct about the magazine box limiting your loads. The magazine box is huge as is neck limitations and OAL cartridge length. Often you are eating into powder capacity to fit a magazine. On top of that if it feeds from a magazine you can not set the bullet seating death properly to kiss the lands so you end up having to make a huge jump which is anything but "precision" or "accuracy". Of course you have the "me too" mentality in the industry so even though it is a fools folly Weatherby has a 6.5 Weatherby which makes no sense at all dropping down from a 30cal (.308) projectile to a 6.5 (.264) projectile offer's nothing to say a 1000m Elk Kill. In fact a 190gr. to 230gr. projectile in a 300 Weatherby is prob. as good as it get's for long range hunting on medium and large game at long ranges. I will say it again other than weight and handiness anyone that thinks a short action is in any way more inherently accurate is only demonstrating how much marketing they have absorbed in the last 3 decades from magazines. It is just like all the people that put those stupid "Vornado" things in their car or trucks intake duct work thinking it would improve fuel economy or putting cheap, weak, permanent magnets on the fuel line thinking again it would improve fuel economy those are in the same category as shorter action is stiffer aft of the locking lugs so it must produce better accuracy! Unless you are in the reamer, die, rifle building, ammo make or brass making industries 95% of the cartridges designed and brought to market over the last 30 years are nothing but a distraction from a hunting stand point. Well if you rule out people buying the wrong action for the job they want to do again most of this conversation need not happen. I would have to say that 3000fps is not a must have for long range hunting that is comical if one looks at the last 100 years of cartridge development and long range hunting. Also the best way to get to 3000+fps is not in a short action. That is like selecting Helen Keller for your shooting team it is not going to make any sense and will only serve to hinder you! All of the VLD bullets in 6.5 are questionable to use on large game because the bullet designs do not hold together well. All of the bullets that do work great on large game are not VLD. That is true in 6mm/243 as well the best bullets that hold together well tend to be soft points with spitzer shape not VLD's. I can still remember when people tried to use the 22-250 on Elk long ago and it was a disaster. When you get a huge number of people doing something foolish it makes it common practice not best practice! [/QUOTE]
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