Your Opinion on Self-Defense

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by RogerK, Mar 10, 2007.

  1. RogerK

    RogerK Active Member

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    Take a gander at this:

    http://www.legis.nd.gov/assembly/60-2007/bill-text/HAVO0300.pdf

    The state: North Dakota. The bill is HB 1319. It’s a castle doctrine. The current law on the books puts the onus on the victim of an attack to use the least force necessary, and by default, to prove that the force used was necessary. HB 1319 makes it hard, if not impossible for a prosecutor to file charges in a case of self-defense.

    I’m a veteran of many homicide investigations in California. I investigated a few of these cases. I am unequivocally in favor of this bill and plan to testify in favor of the bill. I have what I think are compelling arguments in favor of the bill. I want to hear your arguments in favor of this bill, and your thoughts on the philosophy and doctrine of self-defense.

    But listening to arguments the opposition puts forward sharpens my thinking, so more important than arguments in favor of this bill, I want to hear arguments against this proposed change in the law. Why the least amount of force? Why the onus ought to be on the individual that uses deadly force?

    Lock and load and fire away. Any opinions offered greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Geezer

    Geezer Well-Known Member

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    The Bill seems like good law to me. Don't know why some prosecutors seem to be down on self-defense in any situation. I personally consider retreat to be the first self-defense option to be tried (cluck cluck), but it's sometimes not feasible.

    Anyway, here's a few strawman arguments for you to knock down:

    Statistically, very few breakins and robberies actually result in the death or serious injury of the victim. Is it proper to give them the right to kill just to protect possessions which can easily be replaced; in effect make them judge, jury, and executioner?

    Given the fact that most people have had little or no self-defense training, wouldn't they, and surrounding innocent individuals, be safer if they tried to retreat rather than confronting an intruder and endangering bystanders with stray bullets?

    In other states, there have been a number of incidents where innocent people mistakenly going to the wrong house were shot at the door by a homeowner. Current law reduces the chances of such a tragedy by imposing criminal and civil penalties for such actions, whereas this bill would free the homeowner from all liability.

    Have at 'em.
     

  3. James Jones

    James Jones Well-Known Member

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    If anybody attempts to harm me or my loved ones the reaction by me will be deadly !! If anybody attempts to harm my home or my belongings the reaction by me will probably be deadly if they are cought in the act.

    I work to hard for my things and my family for some varmnit to take it !!!
    My first line of defense is a sign on the gate stating that their is a very mean , well trained dog who will probaly be talking to you while you read the sign which states that an attack by this animal will likly be fatal if I'm not their to stop it.
    Second line of defense , "Sarge" the dog mentioned above
    Third , locked doors and a security system.
    fourth , me , a very well trained SWAT officer/instructor thats armed accordingly

    The way I see it if you make it to my level you obvously have bad intentions for me and my family and more than likly sombody leaving in a bag!! like the old saying goes I'll take my chances being judged by twelve than carried by six!!

    Now I'm all for giving the perp a chance if the before mentioned security levels are not in place.
    when people ask me advise on how to handle a brake in I tell them to first call 911 , then make it known to the offending party the police are comming , then get into your defensive position in your room and wait , if the offender hasen't left he meens buisness , if he makes it to your room he deserves to die for it!! and the whole thing is going to be on a recorded tape at the police station from the 911 call.

    From years of training I alway put my self in the tactical advantage no matter where I am , kinda sick I know but? I look at everything from a defensive stand point and all is mapped out in seconds after entering the area. I refuse to be a victom !!

    I'm personaly SICK , of all these bleeding heart candy assed liberals making laws to protect the vermin and not the victom , I personaly urge as many people to take a class and get their CCW. If ore people refuse to be victomized and take hostile action against their offenders then their will be less crime. I live just minutes from the armpit of the nation (New Orleans) and I'm forced to pass through their for work as are thousands of others , many of which are victomized in one way or the other and the laws protect the criminals !!

    Oh man this has got my Blood Pressure up I gotta go
     
  4. tomme_boy

    tomme_boy Active Member

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    JDJones, A little OT, but. Myself and a lot of others would love to get their CCW, but most sherrifs will not issue them. At least around here. They mainly say that there is not enough of a justification for it. I have tried several times to get one but have never heard back from them. I think I have a very good justifiction for one. I have a dealers lisc., 2 blown disc in my back, very bad knees, overweight, chain smoker, and could not run from a confrentation if I had to. Can't spell either. So what would be the trick to get one. My old ladies cousins husband is a detective on the local PD and he does not know what to tell me on how to get it. Thanks.
     
  5. James Jones

    James Jones Well-Known Member

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    Tomme_boy , shoot me a PM or E-mail and we can discuss it a little further without the worry of high jacking a post

    jjones75@bellsouth.net
     
  6. philny1

    philny1 Well-Known Member

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    I have a concealed carry permit, so does my wife. Two big dogs. We live in a very rural area, our home is kinda out of place for the locale, getting along in years, a gun dealer and usually have a fair amount of cash on hand. Try to keep a low profile, but beleive this makes us prime candidates for home invasion. Somebody gets in my house, if I'm able, pure amd simple I'm gonna punch his ticket.
    Enough said
    Phil
     
  7. Ballistic64

    Ballistic64 Well-Known Member

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    Retreat from an intruder in ones own home home should never even be a consideration,either by the homeowner or the law.Putting ones life at risk or the lives of others in the home (or even property) because the law expects the homeowner to speculate the level of deadly force the intruder is capable of,or intent on,should not be the responcibility of the homeowner.Im sure being a former law enforcement officer,you know better than most how fast the threat or level of deadly force can rise.Expecting a home owner to take the evaluation of this threat/level into consideration while being intruded/threatened upon under fear of later prosecution is a stipulation that may cause the homeowner(s) thier lives.I say pass the law,protect the home owner and let all responcibilty fall onto the intruder or the corpse of.
     
  8. James Jones

    James Jones Well-Known Member

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    One thing that everybody has to remember is that if your armed that makes EVERY confrontation an armed confrontation wether your opposition is armed or not , their are alot of people killed every year because they pulled a gun expecting the bad guy to run in fear but he ends up with the gun and the owner ends up shot.
    One thing I tell everybody that wants to carry is that unless your mentaly capible of killing sombody and fully understand whats gonna happen after that don't bother.

    If you kill sombody weter in self defense or not your world is gonna be turned upside down , not only did you just take a life , sombodys son , maybe sombodys father thats hard for you to deal with on your own , but the media is going to make you out to be a vigilanti killer , your name is gonna be posted everywhere and you will be made out to be the bad guy , and god help you if the persoan you killed had a mental defect or was of another race other than yours then you'll be a racest killer.

    But in all , I feel that everybody has the right to protect themselves and their property with deadly force. You don't know your opposition , you don't know if hes armed , if he has any special training or mentaly deffective , their for evry confrontation should be looked at like a life or death confrontation. You would be supprised the amout of people that have the knowledge and training to kill you with their bare hands
     
  9. 8404Vet

    8404Vet Well-Known Member

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    I would dislike all of the above post regarding media, coping with taking someones life, etc. However, I couldn't ever get over my son or wife being harmed by some low life, and I would rather be punished by law then live knowing I could have prevented my family being harmed.
     
  10. Centre Punch

    Centre Punch Well-Known Member

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    Here in the UK our government has frittered away our right to defend ourselves, and the police are to swamped with paper work to protect us /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif.
    People are becomong the victims of violent crimes by all sorts including minors because of the prospect of prosecution if they retaliate /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif.
    The dispicable Human rights Act protects these scumbags in everthing they do /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif.
    Even if they violate your home or your family their rights are upheld /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif.
    i want to write more but i am growing angrier and angrier as i go on....
    All i can say now is dont let it happen in your country

    Ian.
     
  11. ds

    ds Well-Known Member

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    My concealed carry is a S&W 686 and a knife - if you carry a gun always carry a knife.

    What I do not carry is pepper spay - if I do not have it, it does away with the "I should have used it before the gun".

    It seems like traditionaly the arguement has been self defense with a gun or not. Where I think the right to use a gun may become eroded is with non lethal weapons - I can here one question being asked - why do you want a pistol or revolver and not a taser.(I know the answer is multiple perps) but by carrying a non lethal weapon, it makes the justification for using a gun harder.

    Erosion can also occur on more subtle levels. Here the law refers to a pistol or revoler as a weapon (zbrane,in Czech). I think it is important that it is seen to be a weapon - one that is used to defend ones self with and the termininology is not watered down to "firearm" for example - you can take the arguement on to other stuff eg. targets - train and practice for the intended use, in other words use targets that look like people.

    When you conceed little by little to be PC - eventually you end up with nothing.

    Note to Ian - I can still remember shooting the "huns" head at Bisley in the Mc. Queens when it looked like a German - now it is all that "delimited" crap - PC merchants again.

    David.
     
  12. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    JD RE your first post up above. I'm with you 100% but......am a little queezy. I keep rifle/shotgun handy and ready. I used to carry but I had no confidence. Son carries and I suppose it will be me yelling Shoot! Shoot!. But I CCW and mm scrounging around for a CCW Certified Trainer in a sheriff's dept (our county has no such trained people ) to train me a bit to increase the confidence level.

    With the recent shootings in Salt Lake, some local goings on around here and in Boise I think its time. My bro in law is the legal representative for the State's law enforcement agencies. I'll tell ya he sure doesn't mess around. You otta see his scrap book.....

    BTW, I like the above described law.
     
  13. Desert Fox

    Desert Fox Well-Known Member

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    Try applying for a CCW permit here in California. You have better chance winning a lottery than getting one. Have you guys seen the movie Zodiac?. Went with the wife and kids to see it friday. If that won't encourage you to carry a gun, I don't know what else. Call me paranoid, but I never keep my guard down, whether in public places or in my home. I refused to be victimize.
     
  14. grit

    grit Well-Known Member

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    I believe we have the right to protect ourselves and our property with deadly force. I will be taking my concealed weapons class on the twentieth.

    My wife and I were discussing this issue. I have two stories. A few nights ago my children and I were leaving the local skating rink. We walked to the truck. I loaded the kids in the truck, and was walking around to the drivers door when my son says, "Hey, this isn't our truck". I run back to the passenger door and unload my kids. My kids trot off towards our truck, and I am shutting the door just as the owner walks out of the skating rink. Holy [censored]!

    As a college student I lived in an appartment. Returning home late one night I found myself locked out. I went to the back where I knew the kitchen window was usually left open a bit. I climbed in my window and opened the fridge. I stood in the fridge light for a full minute wondering what the hell was in my fridge before realising I was in the wrong house.

    These are two scenarious I could have been shot while meaning no harm. Food for your debate.