What is the max range of my elk hunting load?

[WildRose]

You must not have read the article I posted. Either way, we could go on forever arguing about this topic, but it's not pertinent to the thread, at this point.

I've apologized for my part in the bull-headedness, and like I said, I'm done with the discussion.

Now back to the topic of the thread...

Actually that's the problem. I did read the article you posted and six others.

I suggest you try reading those I posted and get up to date and informed about high velocity high energy bullet wounds, which is what this discussion was about.

 

[Jordan Smith]

I didn't know John said that, but it obviously had to have hit there or where I stated because it would be very doubtful that the cow would have gone down on the spot like that at 600+ yards with a .243 if hit through the lungs. I have shot most of over 100 animals through the heart/lung area and an occasional one through the shoulder if I wanted to knock one down due to cover in the area that may have made recovery more difficult. I must be doing something right because so far I've never lost one! I won't argue energy, velocity, etc. with anyone. All I will say is get the correct expanding bullet with enough speed at POI to penetrate and expand and you will have a dead animal in pretty short order. The shorter the better when you're talking a bull elk near heavy coer where they are located the majority of the time. Good discussion guys, even if we did get a little rowdy, LOL!

Well said.

The girl was using a 105gr Berger VLD, which are known to do some major damage after penetrating the first few inches, so even if the bullet did hit the lungs, the cow would likely have had some serious vital damage to deal with, and may have gone down in short order.

That example does show that a 105gr VLD from a .243 has enough momentum to break through and penetrate the shoulder of a cow elk at 650+ yards, though...

 

[WildRose]

John Burns stated that it was a high shoulder shot.

Energy is a poor metric for determining killing power. Momentum is a better indicator of penetrating ability (assuming proper bullet construction). Velocity is a better indicator of bullet expansion (again, depending on bullet construction).

If you get both bullet expansion and penetration into the vitals. The bullet will kill.

BTW, I've killed with the .25-06 at a few yards shy of 950, so I have some idea of what it'll do at that range. Simply put, as long as we're talking about chest shots, I wouldn't want to be an elk in the way of that bullet...

Without energy momentum is 0.

Momentum also ignores the pentrating capabilities of any given projectile.

How Hard Does It Hit?

Why do you think all ballistics calculators and table incluce energy and velocity along with BC?

 

[WildRose]

Well said.

The girl was using a 105gr Berger VLD, which are known to do some major damage after penetrating the first few inches, so even if the bullet did hit the lungs, the cow would likely have had some serious vital damage to deal with, and may have gone down in short order.

That example does show that a 105gr VLD from a .243 has enough momentum to break through and penetrate the shoulder of a cow elk at 650+ yards, though...

Without seeing the actual wound I don't buy that a .243 was capable at that range of penetrating the shoulder blade and spine.

EDTA: just watched it again. The shot is behind the shoulder, not through the shoulder blade.

 

[Jordan Smith]

Without energy momentum is 0.

Momentum also ignores the pentrating capabilities of any given projectile.

How Hard Does It Hit?

Why do you think all ballistics calculators and table incluce energy and velocity along with BC?

Both energy and momentum are real quantities, but are calculated based on mass and velocity, in different proportions. Energy gives an exponential priority to velocity, which is just not realistic when considering projectile penetration.

From the article you cited: "...how hard it is to stop (momentum)..."

According to that article, momentum defines penetration.

Energy has been used by writers and ammo manufacturing companies for decades to help the average shooter visualize and quantify the killing power of a bullet. It's a poor indicator, at best, but there really is no one term that captures killing power in a simple numerical figure.

 

[Jordan Smith]

Without seeing the actual wound I don't buy that a .243 was capable at that range of penetrating the shoulder blade and spine.

EDTA: just watched it again. The shot is behind the shoulder, not through the shoulder blade.

I'll take the word of the guy who was there, and actually saw the inside of that cow elk's chest cavity, rather than that of someone speculating based off of watching a video...

 

[WildRose]

Both energy and momentum are real quantities, but are calculated based on mass and velocity, in different proportions. Energy gives an exponential priority to velocity, which is just not realistic when considering projectile penetration.

From the article you cited: "...how hard it is to stop (momentum)..."

According to that article, momentum defines penetration.

Energy has been used by writers and ammo manufacturing companies for decades to help the average shooter visualize and quantify the killing power of a bullet. It's a poor indicator, at best, but there really is no one term that captures killing power in a simple numerical figure.

Emphasis mine.

No that's not what it says.

To settle it (and to find out which was nearest the truth), I sat down and made some calculations about different projectile weapons, including atlatl darts. In the end, I came up with three variables for comparison -- how hard it hits (kinetic energy), how hard it is to stop (momentum), and how effectively it penetrates (sectional density). These are explained in more detail later.

 

[WildRose]

I'll take the word of the guy who was there, and actually saw the inside of that cow elk's chest cavity, rather than that of someone speculating based off of watching a video...

I'm basing it on the fact thats what he states in the video.

 

[Jordan Smith]

You must be hearing things...

 

[WildRose]

You must be hearing things...

Yes I'm hearing him say, "Right behind the Shoulder"... .gun)

 

[Fiftydriver]

Well, I guess if nothing meaningful comes out of this, which it WONT, at least a few members have been able to pad their post count!!!

Still surpised its been allowed to go on like this.

 

[WildRose]

Well, I guess if nothing meaningful comes out of this, which it WONT, at least a few members have been able to pad their post count!!!

Still surpised its been allowed to go on like this.

Thank you so very much for your valuable insight.

 

[Jordan Smith]

Kind of hard to read, but you get the point.

 

[Jordan Smith]

Well, I guess if nothing meaningful comes out of this, which it WONT, at least a few members have been able to pad their post count!!!

Still surpised its been allowed to go on like this.

I've tried a few times to get back on topic, but WildRose seems to be set on trying to get a rise out of me. This should help:

"This message is hidden because WildRose is on your ignore list."