What is Long Range (take two)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AJ Peacock, Dec 7, 2007.

  1. AJ Peacock

    AJ Peacock Well-Known Member

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    Based on some discussion on another thread, it was surmised that "Long Range" might be better defined in terms of flight time than distance.

    Certainly a 500yd shot with a 222Rem is much tougher and would be considered 'more' long range, than that same shot with a 50BMG or 338AM.

    It was opined that anything over 3/4 second flight time might be rationally considered 'long range'. Since the longer the flight time, the more critical everything becomes (animal staying still, reloads being perfect, wind being estimated correctly etc.).

    To that end, I've calculated (using Exbal) what the above definition would mean for a few popular bullet/velocity combinations.

    22cal 80gr SMK at 3000 anything beyond 580yds
    22cal 80gr SMK at 3400 anything beyond 650yds
    7mm 160gr Accubond at 3000fps anything beyond 610yds
    30cal 180gr SMK at 2600fps anything beyond 530yds
    338cal 300SMK at 3400fps anything beyond 725yds


    Thanks,
    AJ

    ps: Merry Christmas
     
  2. CatShooter

    CatShooter Well-Known Member

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    Oh goodie.... we can get back to "long range" shooting (no angels and pins invited).

    I have been interested in long range shooting since before I was old enuff to buy guns or ammo.

    As I went through different stages, I began to make observations just like you have here.

    About 5 or 6 years ago, a good shooting friend and I discovered that you could predict the approximate barrel life of a cartridge, by just what powder it used as optimum... that was pretty cool. We tested it on just about every round we could think of, and it always came out right.

    I also found that (assuming normal designs and pressures) ANY cartridge that had a powder charge that was equal to the bullet weight would give you ~4,000 fps - it didn't make any difference what caliber, as long as the barrel was reasonable for a rifle, and the powder was of an optimum burn rate. (stupid examples like 40gr of IMR-5010 in a 22-250 with a 40gr bullet, don't count)

    There are lots of these "3/4ths of a second" relationship-thingies in shooting that are a bunch of fun to discover, and when put together, they give us a bigger understanding of shooting than the charts and graphs do.

    I have a 40-XB rimfire target rifle that I bought from a local school that phased out their rifle team.

    I cut off 4 inches, and mounted a Leupold 6.5-20x40 EFR on it, in Burris Signature rings, so I have the full 40 moa of elevation as up.

    It also shoots the 60gr Aguila rounds (it has a 14" twist), and at long range, you can fire one of these puppies, and call out for pizza before it plinks the rock (or barn pigeon) you were aiming at.

    Using that rifle at 300yds is as much of a challenge as using a 50 BMG at 1,900 yds (my furthest with the 50-BMG).

    It's all relative I guess.

    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2007

  3. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    That is very interesting to think of long range shooting in that way.

    By the way, with the new Aluminum tipped bullets, when they are ready, we can easily break 1000 yards with the 338 AM with 1 second of flight time.

    Even my huge 510 AM will only get 860 yards in that time with a 750 gr A-Max at 2900 fps. The standard BMG with that same bullet will be around 800 yards in a second.

    This is very dependant on bullet design however so you could take two loads in say a 7mm RUM, one with a 160 gr Accbond and one with a 200 gr ULD RBBT and they would be guite different but still be the same chambering.

    The 160 gr Accubond will be nearly identical to the 510 AM at 860 yards. The 200 gr ULD RBBT will be right around 900 yards.

    Looks as though, this really leans toward the hyper velocity rounds. Interesting way to look at things though.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  4. speedbump

    speedbump Well-Known Member

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    Curious stuff AJ. The powder estimation is too CatShooter. What dweebs we are to find such things interesting ! When I 1st had my 7mmRUM built I took it over to Indiana with some friends who regularly shot 1K steel with a variety of rounds. We were banging away contentedly when, by chance, I fired about 1/2 a second behind my pal shooting a .308. We both had solid hits, but the RUM beat the '08 there by a slim margin. Huh ? Weird, shooting noticably behind a good cartridge, and having it passed in flight on the way to the target.

    I got interested in time-of-flight and found that with the 176 Cauterucio moving at 3,340fps, it had an almost exact 1 second time-of-flight to 1K. While the .308/ 175 was tipping over at the 600 yard mark, the 176 was rocketing over the furrows well beneath it, and getting there in almost exactly 1/2 the time. It was no less or no more accurate, but the wind sure had alot less time to get its gnarly fingers around the bullet !
     
  5. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    This could be very deceptive. Let me explain.

    You can take a 125 gr 30 cal ballistic tip and load it to 4000 fps and you will get 950 yards in a second of bullet flight. It also has 140" of drop from a 100 yard zero and 55" of wind drift with a 10 mph cross wind.

    In comparision, take the 7mm AM, load the 200 gr ULD RBBT(.9BC) to 3250 fps and you will only get 930 yards with 1 second of bullet flight. Still, you have the same amount of drop as the hyper velocity round but wind drift is only 25", less then half the hyper velocity example.

    So while it would be a hell of a long range shot for the 125 gr BT 30 cal at 950 yards, 930 yards with the 7mm AM is not much of a trick in any way......

    There are always flies to mess up the dinner I suppose!! LOL

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  6. lerch

    lerch <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    Hmmm, sounds like elevation drop is pretty constant and easy to predict where as windage seems is varying and the real trouble maker. Well in that sense the hyper velocity little bullet seems to lose the race, to bad some people cant grasp that!

    yea im pokin a little bit here but just cause i made the same mistake about 3yrs ago.

    oh and for my opinion long range starts around any shot after 400yds, just my personnal opinion.
     
  7. AJ Peacock

    AJ Peacock Well-Known Member

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    I grasp that heavy for cal bullet with high BC's are the cat's meow, I was just trying to quantify what Long Range is. I shot my elk this year at 520yds and don't consider the shot even close to long range. Why? Because I was using an absolute hammer (338AM). If I had shot it with a .243 I would have considered it long range.

    Just throwing stuff out to talk about.

    AJ
     
  8. Tyler Kemp

    Tyler Kemp SPONSOR

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    I shot a deer just below 300 yards with my 45-70 this year. Rem. 300 JHP @ 2250ish fps. To me, with that gun, it is considered long range. What is the time of flight on it?
     
  9. AJ Peacock

    AJ Peacock Well-Known Member

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    Around .55 second. 385yds would be .75 second and 470yds would be 1 second.

    (not exact, but pretty close)

    AJ

    ps: 300yds with a 45-70 is a pretty fair poke!
     
  10. Tyler Kemp

    Tyler Kemp SPONSOR

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    I am building a gun for longer range shooting, but I have never shot much past 550 yards. I got to shoot at a milk jug at 1000 once, the gun was sighted for that distance, but I could only make the jug dance. I figured the shot with the 45-70 was about 30 inches of drop. It did a whole lot more damage than the energy level at the distance led me to believe. Other deer at less than 100 yards just have a big hole, but this one I hit a shoudler. One whole shoulder was a mess, most of the other one also.
     
  11. NONYA

    NONYA Banned

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    Any time I have to hold crosshairs off the target to hit it I consider it long range,so on deer size game somewhere in the 400+ yard range,I know hunters that consider 250 long.