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Discussion in 'Reloading' started by 260shooter, Feb 1, 2009.
How many weight sort magnum brass and how much variation do you accept?
Does it show on paper?
Many of us sort cases by weight but not for how much differencee it might provably make on paper. We do that, and a lot of other stuff, for the confidence that results from having done all we can to make precision ammo. That simply can't be done with random cases.
Set your own standards, we do.
I usually buy brass by the 500 ct to get 50-75, maybe a few more to get one lot that is w/i a half grain. I save the rest for fouling shots, practice shots, or use them for my brother's ammo. He's never known the difference.
My mentor and builder is a BR HOF member, world record holder and did very extensive testing on this and concluded that it is a waste of time. After going thru the data with him, I concur with his conclusion.
What brand(s) of brass were used to collect data? What are the details of the extensive testing? What ranges were tested? How many different rifles and calibers were used for the tests? Were they factory and custom chambers? Did the tests conclude that there was a set weight spread in brass that was determined to be a waste of time if sorted? How many brass cases were tested?
This is another subject that has a lot of different opinions.
I learned what little gunsmithing skills I have from a master builder
and bench rest shooter that was so particular that even the color
of the brass made a difference.( he said it was because of the neck
tension that different brass imparted on the bullet even though you
did all the right things, trim,ream,turn,brush etc).
And he said that nothing was a wast of time if you wanted the best out
of a rifle.
I weight sort all of my brass when I get it and store it in batches that are
clearly marked for future use. In my loading data I record the brand,
number of firings, trim length,neck thickness of the brass so that later
I can match the new brass to the old brass. This allowes me to duplicate
my favorite load and not have to start all over with testing .
So that is why I weight sort all of my brass along with all of the other
And as boss hoss said it may not be nessary but "All" of my hunting rifles
will shoot under 1/2 MOA and most under 1/4 MOA with the best 4 shooting
.031,.054,.077 and .092 groups. (all of these rifles are hunting rifles and
weigh 8 to 12lbs).
In the pursuit of perfection I leave no stone unturned.
Why build a custom rifle and feed it junk like the factory ammo.
Remember this is just My opinion and others are entitled to theirs so
you must make the final choice.
J E CUSTOM
Speedy Gonzales did the testing on 6ppc brass that he fire-formed fro 220 Russian Lapua. That should answer most of your questions. The total number of pieces of brass tested I do not know but will find out if you need to know. The reamer he uses are to his spec for his competition rifles. One does not usually set world records get into both major shooting disciplines HOF's by not knowing what one is doing (he builds his own rifles).
How many matches, championships, or hall of fames are you a member of?
Skins on the wall go a long way to validate ---- talk is just that talk.
The attached link is just for the picture and introduction not the barrel cleaning routine Barrel Break-in
The short answer is and this a direct quote "sorting brass is a complete waste of time but some people do it to make themselves feel better and if that works for their program then fine" ----- "my testing showed that there was no advantage because just because there is a weight difference that may or may not have a bearing on volume differences" ----- “you may be doing more harm than good by discarding a case that may be heavier because the interior volume may be the same”
In his testing Speedy also checked internal volumes on the test cases to determine that the weight differences were indeed not having a cause and effect relationship on the volumetric capacity. Volumetric differences of the internal part of the case are not systemic to the weight difference of the case alone.
Speedy also for example has the most intricate procedure for turning brass necks that I have ever seen or heard of. Just for example, he grinds the mandrel (specific type of tool steel) to the exact diameter that is required based on the measurements taken from the actual neck size of the brass being turned. Then uses a lube he has concocted himself and then has the lathe set at the exact speed that will give the best most consistent cut while not building up heat that will cause variances in the process. This is just one of the tricks he has shown me but it suffices to say that if something will make a difference in the accuracy of the bullet going down the tube he has either tried it or does it. I have never been able to think of anything that he had not already done years ago--not to be say that there is not anything that is not already known but everything that I have read on these types of forums was tried a long time ago.
AMEN to making the final choices yourself! My hunting rifles are loaded the same as my 1K competition ones as well (also make all of my dies from the reamers used to cut the chambers). Well there is one exception that on the rifles that are short range 400 yds and less I don’t do the bearing surface comparison of the projectile nor do I use the point up die or a meplat trimmer but I still check each round for concentricity! lol
None. That's why I have a lot of questions. I hope you don't take offense to those who are trying to learn.
But from what you posted, it can be inferred that one bench rest HOF person tested one caliber using one brand of brass of excellent quality and concluded that wt sorting was an absolute waste of time for his test and for his purposes, and thus, this means that all calibers and all brands of brass need no wt sorting in any caliber. That is a truly remarkable conclusion.
I respect the man's abilities no doubt. The comment on sorting brass by capacity is truly, imo, the most accurate weigh to sort if one chooses to do so. Curiously, Mr. Gonzales wrote this regarding vertical stringing:
CURES for VERTICAL STRINGING
Yet as much as 3-4 grains of brass doesn't amount to a hill of beans. It may all be perfectly true. I don't know. That's why I have questions.
That is correct about the vertical stringing and is why the point blank guys load at the range between relays so that conditions such as temp, humidity etc can be taken into consideration! I am a 1K guy and ALWAYS load the night before the match. Neck tension is very very important and we want to have a fresh neck set! I like to win when I travel to shoot a match which Speedy has a saying that is very appropriate “Winning isn’t everything but losing sucks”
To say that the pursuit of accuracy is relentless and all consuming is an understatement! That being said however, does not mean that it makes sense to throw resources at something that will have questionable value.
You mentioned that only one type of brass and caliber was utilized – this makes no difference because when there is a wt difference in the cases it may OR may not mean that there is a volumetric difference. The question you must ask yourself==is the wt difference I am seeing attributable to a volumetric change or is this just in the web area??? There is no way to know unless you check the absolute volume of each case after it has been fired. The next question is why after it has been fired??? Think about that one and get back with me. If you are checking unfired brass then you are really peeing into the wind.
I have no problem eliminating wt sorting if it makes zero difference out to 1000 yards.
Now what makes me even more curious is different brands of brass. If I have Nosler, Remington, Winchester, and Hornady brass in 7mm Rem mag and I capacity sorted once fired brass with water and it turned out that I had several from each brand in one batch, would that be more uniform than taking all cases of one make and have a batch that weighed within roughly 7 grains.
Not to worry, I'm not going to waste my time sorting by capacity. But it does make me wonder why Nosler chose to sort by weight as a selling point on their custom brass.
They felt they needed SOMETHING as a selling point, and weighing their product is EASY.
It doesn't have to mean anything other than you buying it..
I can understand Speedy not wt sorting for 100, 200 yard shooting, maybe even 600. I would have thought a 1000 yard shooter would weight sort. Do you turn your necks like Gonzales?
Yes he is the one who showed me how to do it. Did most of them in his shop -- also fire formed and turned brass for customers as well. Speedy had a dedicated rail gun used to fireform brass--could do about 200 to 300 an hour depending on outside temps. Bullseye burns pretty hot!