Weighing Cases for Quickload

[Mikecr]

QL lists an estimate of how the charge will perform, and lists the time it takes for the bullet to leave the muzzle- (barrel time) for the range of charges.

QL estimates your pressure, velocity, and even barrel time. This has nothing to do with how the load will perform accuracy-wise.
All the qualifiers you mentioned to follow(QL calibrations) are not predictions, but DISCOVERY.
You have to discover to calibrate.

What folks are doing is finding best loads(however they do) -and then backwards analyzing to make a desired correlation with that discovered load and OBT.
Well, it doesn't matter what correlation you make to OBT once you already found your best load through other means!
It's not prediction of best load.
It's not a shortcut.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

QL does not.
Nothing can or ever will PREDICT best charge.

Really.

 

[bill123]

QL estimates your pressure, velocity, and even barrel time. This has nothing to do with how the load will perform accuracy-wise.
All the qualifiers you mentioned to follow(QL calibrations) are not predictions, but DISCOVERY.
You have to discover to calibrate.

What folks are doing is finding best loads(however they do) -and then backwards analyzing to make a desired correlation with that discovered load and OBT.
Well, it doesn't matter what correlation you make to OBT once you already found your best load through other means!
It's not prediction of best load.
It's not a shortcut.

Mike, once I do a load work up and run QL to get the BT of that load, will that be my OBT that I can use to predict nodes for other bullet/powder combinations in that gun?

 

[Deleted member 46119]

See attached photo. My actual MV is 2925.

Are you seated into the lands?

 

[Mikecr]

Mike, once I do a load work up and run QL to get the BT of that load, will that be my OBT that I can use to predict nodes for other bullet/powder combinations in that gun?

NOPE
Change anything and start discovering again.
There is a lot more to estimating timing than resultant MV. And where we could see actual timing(pressure trace) there is still the matter of predicting best.

There probably isn't but a few here who could even assemble an entire list of internal ballistic attributes combining to result best -vs- worst.
It ain't simple.

 

[bill123]

Are you seated into the lands?

No, .011" jump.

 

[Wyo7200]

QL estimates your pressure, velocity, and even barrel time. This has nothing to do with how the load will perform accuracy-wise.
All the qualifiers you mentioned to follow(QL calibrations) are not predictions, but DISCOVERY.
You have to discover to calibrate.

What folks are doing is finding best loads(however they do) -and then backwards analyzing to make a desired correlation with that discovered load and OBT.
Well, it doesn't matter what correlation you make to OBT once you already found your best load through other means!
It's not prediction of best load.
It's not a shortcut.

You are taking my use of "perform" out of context Mike. I was meaning what QL lists, i.e., Loading ratio, case fill, charge weight, pressure, propellant burnt, barrel time, etc. I wasn't talking about accuracy until I said:

"If you take the time to enter your guns profile, measure your components (bullets weight, length, diameter, case length and H2o capacity) and enter them into QL, adjust the weighting factor correctly for the cartridge, adjust the burn rate to match chronographed velocities, it can estimate what will be a performing charge and what would be a waste when coupled with Chris longs node tables."

They key is the last part- when coupled with Chris Longs' node table. Although seems like pressure, velocity, and barrel-time surely correlate between two accurate loads in my 25/06:
100gr BTIP: +00.0 91 XX.XX 3125 2169 43642 12624 97.9 1.226 (IMR 4831)
110gr Accubond: +00.0 101 XX.XX 3078 2314 49381 12797 99.8 1.227 (RE-25)

You are right, the qualifiers I mentioned are empirical "discoveries" found on purpose. However, I prefer to think of them as measurements though. Wondering where you got the idea that I said they [the qualifiers] were "predictions".

And, well... Agree to disagree on your last point. I have several loads that were estimated in QL and the OBT table for my rifles lengths before I stepped foot onto the range. -Mind you, I did my due diligent homework and verified that my charge needed for the node was within published data and I had velocity measurements of the powder's lots. I had previously shot other load combinations at higher pressures (10-15K higher) in the rifles so I was confident that I was seeing safe combinations in QL that matched a node in CL's table. My result- fastest load development I have ever completed. Three in the same hole? I'd accept that for a hunting rifle. 25/06, 100gr BTIP. Performs just as well as my 110gr Accubond load, each are leaving the barrel at the same node and have roughly the same velocity.

I could post a few more of my loads and several friends' loads that I assisted with but I'm not going to hijack this thread anymore. I'm convinced that my method has proven itself useful, safe (I wont be charging up loads near to or past published max's if I see I wont be reaching a node), frugal and results in pretty decent accuracy.

Your results may vary.

 

[Wyo7200]

Mike, once I do a load work up and run QL to get the BT of that load, will that be my OBT that I can use to predict nodes for other bullet/powder combinations in that gun?

Bill, Chris long has identified a range of nodes for each barrels lengths, so you are essentially matching your components to the barrels harmonics. It can be found here

My accurate loads BT have come within 2-3% of a node listed in Chris's table.

Other bullet combinations, for example, heavier bullets may overlap on some nodes, but most will likely fall near the slower timed nodes. Lighter bullets will be closer to the faster timed nodes. Each combination (most) will have 2-3 nodes that you can identify if your inputs into QL are precise.

QL has a feature that you can search combinations by barrel time, and see how other powders compare for your selected components. Always refer to published data and verify charges. Be careful. Here is an example, using my components- Yours will most certainly be different:

Cartridge          : .25-06 Rem.
Bullet             : .257, 110, Nosler AccuBond 53742
Useable Case Capaci: 61.720 grain H2O = 4.007 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.200 inch = 81.28 mm
Barrel Length      : [B][U]24.0 inch[/U][/B] = 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Barrel Time: 1.227 milliseconds
[B][COLOR="red"]These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON ![/COLOR][/B]

66 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Vihtavuori N570                    104.4     62.6     4.06    3106    91.4    49816   14303   1.226
Alliant Reloder-33                 105.0     65.6     4.25    3092    91.9    49963   14147   1.227
Norma MRP 2                        103.8     59.1     3.83    3092    96.9    50660   13414   1.227
Hodgdon Retumbo                    107.3     61.4     3.98    3090    99.1    49169   13451   1.227
Norma MRP                           93.6     55.5     3.60    3087    98.7    50307   13141   1.227
Alliant Reloder-25                 100.5     56.9     3.69    3077    99.8    49354   12795   1.227
Accurate MAGPRO                     95.8     57.9     3.75    3065    94.1    50643   13259   1.227
Vihtavuori N560                     94.8     55.1     3.57    3063    95.4    49790   13174   1.227
Winchester WXR                      97.9     55.1     3.57    3054    97.4    50373   12828   1.227
Alliant Reloder-22                  95.3     54.8     3.55    3054    97.5    50260   12821   1.228
Accurate 4350                       88.2     50.2     3.25    3041   100.0    52838   11671   1.227
Alliant Reloder-17                  83.1     49.6     3.21    3041   100.0    49825   11712   1.227
IMR 7828                            98.5     54.5     3.53    3036    95.7    48792   12769   1.227
IMR 7828 SSC                        93.2     54.5     3.53    3036    95.7    48792   12769   1.227

 

[bill123]

Bill, Chris long has identified a range of nodes for each barrels lengths, so you are essentially matching your components to the barrels harmonics. It can be found here

My accurate loads BT have come within 2-3% of a node listed in Chris's table.

Other bullet combinations, for example, heavier bullets may overlap on some nodes, but most will likely fall near the slower timed nodes. Lighter bullets will be closer to the faster timed nodes. Each combination (most) will have 2-3 nodes that you can identify if your inputs into QL are precise.

QL has a feature that you can search combinations by barrel time, and see how other powders compare for your selected components. Always refer to published data and verify charges. Be careful. Here is an example, using my components- Yours will most certainly be different:

Cartridge          : .25-06 Rem.
Bullet             : .257, 110, Nosler AccuBond 53742
Useable Case Capaci: 61.720 grain H2O = 4.007 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.200 inch = 81.28 mm
Barrel Length      : [B][U]24.0 inch[/U][/B] = 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Barrel Time: 1.227 milliseconds
[B][COLOR="red"]These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON ![/COLOR][/B]

66 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 80%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Vihtavuori N570                    104.4     62.6     4.06    3106    91.4    49816   14303   1.226
Alliant Reloder-33                 105.0     65.6     4.25    3092    91.9    49963   14147   1.227
Norma MRP 2                        103.8     59.1     3.83    3092    96.9    50660   13414   1.227
Hodgdon Retumbo                    107.3     61.4     3.98    3090    99.1    49169   13451   1.227
Norma MRP                           93.6     55.5     3.60    3087    98.7    50307   13141   1.227
Alliant Reloder-25                 100.5     56.9     3.69    3077    99.8    49354   12795   1.227
Accurate MAGPRO                     95.8     57.9     3.75    3065    94.1    50643   13259   1.227
Vihtavuori N560                     94.8     55.1     3.57    3063    95.4    49790   13174   1.227
Winchester WXR                      97.9     55.1     3.57    3054    97.4    50373   12828   1.227
Alliant Reloder-22                  95.3     54.8     3.55    3054    97.5    50260   12821   1.228
Accurate 4350                       88.2     50.2     3.25    3041   100.0    52838   11671   1.227
Alliant Reloder-17                  83.1     49.6     3.21    3041   100.0    49825   11712   1.227
IMR 7828                            98.5     54.5     3.53    3036    95.7    48792   12769   1.227
IMR 7828 SSC                        93.2     54.5     3.53    3036    95.7    48792   12769   1.227

Great information. Thanks!

 

[Wyo7200]

No, .011" jump.

Are you using magnum primers? Wondering if the fracturing of some granules (from the compressing of the load) coupled with a hotter brisance changes the initial heat of explosion enough to give Varget a faster burn and netting higher velocities. Have you noticed any unburnt granules leaving the barrel firing this round like, pitting on the magnetospeed bayonet? I got the velocity to bump up against your 2900 fps by increasing the heat of explosion, burn rate factor, and progressive burn rate while remaining under 60k. For safety, I don't want to post the numbers I entered, but each change was 3-4%.

Big however is that there is no controlled scientific test that has been done to accurately scale the primers, besides the one done by a guy with a homemade device in his garage- primer brisance test and I am no chemist so just guessing here. You and my brother have some serious voodoo going on... Are you left handed by chance?

 

[bill123]

Are you using magnum primers? Wondering if the fracturing of some granules (from the compressing of the load) coupled with a hotter brisance changes the initial heat of explosion enough to give Varget a faster burn and netting higher velocities. Have you noticed any unburnt granules leaving the barrel firing this round like, pitting on the magnetospeed bayonet? I got the velocity to bump up against your 2900 fps by increasing the heat of explosion, burn rate factor, and progressive burn rate while remaining under 60k. For safety, I don't want to post the numbers I entered, but each change was 3-4%.

Big however is that there is no controlled scientific test that has been done to accurately scale the primers, besides the one done by a guy with a homemade device in his garage- primer brisance test and I am no chemist so just guessing here. You and my brother have some serious voodoo going on... Are you left handed by chance?

No mag. primers. I'm using BR2's. No pitting on Magnetospeed. About 5,000 rounds through the barrel though. Testing done in following conditions: Temp.: 74deg, DA: 1200. I have a new barrel on now so I'll have to chrono. once I settle on a load.

 

[Mikecr]

it[QL] can estimate what will be a performing charge and what would be a waste when coupled with Chris longs node tables.

No, QL does none of this.
And Chris Long's node table is no more than snake oil to a cold.

Go ahead and tweak your seating 10thou one way or another, or lay your thumb on the action tang & look up your new node on a speed of sound in carbon steel table..

 

[Wyo7200]

No, QL does none of this.
And Chris Long's node table is no more than snake oil to a cold.

Go ahead and tweak your seating 10thou one way or another, or lay your thumb on the action tang & look up your new node on a speed of sound in carbon steel table..

Unm, I've done it numerous times, you can't tell me it doesn't. You can hate the concept all you want, it doesn't affect me any and won't change my mind from the empirical results that I've created or witnessed. I have tested +\- .01 seating depth changes in ocw work ups prior to using OBT, each seating depth was acceptable. And modeling the old ocw loads (developed before I had QL) in QL, each coincidentally landed within 2-3% of the OBT node. These loads developed with the OBT concept are just as tolerant. Putting your thumb on the tang, or having a gas block, muzzle device, silencer... Hasn't deviated any of my loads that were discovered using OCW more than 3% from Chris's node table.

Good luck Mile, wish you well in the future. I'm done.