Tubb's TMS part 1

Discussion in 'Equipment Discussions' started by goodgrouper, Jul 18, 2005.

  1. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    Tubb\'s TMS part 1

    I had the opportunity today to really get into an experiment with David Tubbs's throat maintenance system. I have seen excellent results with factory barrels and Tubb's Final Finish break in system and wouldn't buy a factory gun without using it, but I have had limited experience with the TMS system on worn custom barrels.
    A little while ago, I used a 22 caliber TMS kit in my 22-250 AI fast twist to bring back accuracy and to smooth out the throat so it would be easier to clean. However, on that gun, it was so far eroded that I could not get 75 grain Amax's to touch the riflings anymore so I wasn't sure if the TMS "erased" the lands out farther or if it just made it smoother. The only absolutely known thing I could say about that experience was that it made the rifle a 3 patch gun with Coppermelt from a blue 6 or 7 patch gun. Cleaning time was cut in half, and I could literally feel that the barrel was smoother while pushing the patch down.
    While accuracy never did come back with the 75 AMAX, I went to a slightly less aggressively shaped bullet, the Nosler 80 grain J4 comp and it was shooting excellent. I was getting 1 moa at 100 with them, and about 3/4 moa at 700! I figured that a 3 patch gun that shoots as good as it did when it was new was good enough reason to try the TMS on my 6.5-.284.

    Normally, I would just send the rifle back to the gunsmith to have it set back a thread or two but this time, I needed the gun for the remainder of the chuck season and for an upcoming doe antelope hunt in September. So I figured that this was a great time to try the TMS and keep good notes while I was doing it.

    My 6.5 has about 850 rounds through it. Accuracy has not fallen off at all, but it now takes about 11-12 patches to come clean compared to about 7-8 when it was new. It also has been taking a few more minutes to get her up to 1k then it used to. The throat is rough enough that it is degrading the BC of my bullet slightly.

    So my plan was to clean the rifle completely and then load up some of my normal Bergers at the regular length that puts them about .020" into the riflings. I then "sharpied" all the bullets so that the bite would be very visible on the bullet. I then loaded up 15 TMS rounds way off the riflings like it is recommended. Then I loaded up 5 different charges of Rl22. When the gun was new, it liked 50 grains of RL22 and over the course of the last few years it has had to be loaded down to 48 grains to maintain the velo sweet spot as the throat got rougher. So for the test, I loaded up 48, 49, 50, 51, and 52 grains of RL22 and shot them in sequence after firing the TMS bullets. More on that later.
    I shot 5 TMS bullets, then cleaned. Then I stuck the Berger into the chamber to see if the bullet bite had changed. There was still plenty of mark on the ogive so I cleaned and fired the next ten. After that, I checked it with the Bergers again and it still had .020" bite! Very good.

    I then cleaned it out completely and it went from 11 patches after the first 5 TMS bullets down to 6 after the last 10 TMS.
    At this point I wished I had loaded up more TMS rounds as it was clear that they were perfectly safe to use without fear of erasing the lands ahead of the chamber. But I only had 15.

    So on to the Bergers I went. 48 grains shot an average of 2819 for a three shot group and went into a .365" group at 100 yards. That is almost 200 feet per second slower than the same load shot 1 month ago! Obviously, the smoothening throat was not causing as much pressure.

    49 grains went average of 2961 and shot .655".

    50 grains went average of 3004 and shot a .757".

    51 grains went 3022 and shot a .500" even. This velo was close to the magical speed that this gun likes and it also had a standard deviation of 7. It would have shot a much better group I believe if the mirage wouldn't have been moving the target around my crosshair! It was like looking through chicken noodle soup!

    52 grains got me 3082 out of the 30" barrel with the 140 bergers and a nice .423" group with an SD of 12.

    So after about 20 rounds of load development, it was clear that the smoother throat had got me back to and above my original loading of 50 grains. And instead of taking 12 patches, it only took 7.

    Before starting this experiment, I could look down the bore from the muzzle when it was perfectly clean and see a short distance ahead of the chamber that would scatter the light differently than the rest of the barrel. It looked like a little black ring. Now after 15 rounds of TMS, it is completely gone and the whole barrel looks the same. It may even be shinier out towards the muzzle than it has ever been.

    So far, I would say this TMS system is worth every penny but I would like to get the gun down to a 3-4 patcher if possible so I am going to go shoot another 20 TMS bullets down the bore later this week and I will report back my findings. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Good shooting.
     
  2. 7Rumloader

    7Rumloader Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tubb\'s TMS part 1

    Very good report GG!
    I have always wondered about that kit.
    I don't have any rigs that foul badly but I wondered if it would help smooth out some of the factory tubes and maybe increase accuracy a smidge.
     

  3. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tubb\'s TMS part 1

    Thanks 7rumloader.
    I have seen the Final Finish work absolute miracles with factory barrels. 7mmrhb and I have done load development on dozens of combined factory rifles that were just plain scary at first but after the kit was done, they often clean up in 3-4 patches and have more velocity than normal. Accuracy has been very predictable and linear with 1/4 to 1/2 inch groups common after the kit.

    I will also say that if you are shooting say 95 grains of RL25 in a 300 ultra and getting 3250 with a 180 at max pressure, after the FF kit you will have to use probably 97.5 grains of RL25 and you will get 3350 with no pressure. Then it will also usually drop the amount of patches you have to use with Coppermelt by 50%.

    It truly is an amazing product with factory barrels and thus far is proving just as good with custom barrels. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  4. 7Rumloader

    7Rumloader Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tubb\'s TMS part 1

    I remember you saying something about it on another thread a while back and that peaked my curiosity.
    I will give it a try here soon. I'm not sure what gun yet but I will post my results when I get them.

    Thanks!
     
  5. bucknutz

    bucknutz Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tubb\'s TMS part 1

    gg,you really got my curiosity going now about the tubbs system.good thing.my .25-06 classic has around 800rds through it now.it shoots <1min to 400 but opens to 6-8"@500.and "eats copper"cleaning is a mega-patch deal!with butch's bore shine.like 50+do you think the tubbs bullets will take the hunger away and smooth out the groups?i need to get it to beat my buddy jasons .308 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gifany advice?
     
  6. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tubb\'s TMS part 1

    It'll work just as well in any custom barrel too.
    Best way to break-in as far as I'm concerned. 10 finest TMS, clean & your done.
     
  7. jb1000br

    jb1000br Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tubb\'s TMS part 1

    [ QUOTE ]
    gg,you really got my curiosity going now about the tubbs system.good thing.my .25-06 classic has around 800rds through it now.it shoots <1min to 400 but opens to 6-8"@500.and "eats copper"cleaning is a mega-patch deal!with butch's bore shine.like 50+do you think the tubbs bullets will take the hunger away and smooth out the groups?i need to get it to beat my buddy jasons .308 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gifany advice?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Mark -- just slam my finger in a truck door...works every time /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    JB
     
  8. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tubb\'s TMS part 1

    I got the chance to shoot 20 more TMS rounds through the 6.5-284 Thursday and I have to say that it worked out quite well. I shot 5 rounds and then checked the bullet bite after cleaning and before cleaning. Then I shot 5 more and repeated the process until all 20 were shot. The very last sequence of 5 showed a huge reduction in roughness in the throat and took 50% less Coppermelt and patches to come clean. It is now a solid 4 patch gun. The very last test Berger bullet however did not make any mark on the riflings which I thought very strange because it showed a ton of bite just 5 TMS bullets earlier. I need one more day at the range to confirm velocities and seating depths but thus far I can a say it cleans up much better and accuracy has not suffered at all. Load densities are also back to normal 90% or more. After not having the bullet get marks on it, I proceeded to fire the remaining 5 normal rounds I had left for group at 100 yards. After the fouler, the next four shots went into a .290" group! It obviously still has bite on the bullet becuase these bullets can't hit a bus at 100 yards unless they start into the riflings. I think what has happened is that the lands are now so smooth that they no longer push the ink back on the bullet. More testing is in order for a concrete conclusion, but I can't complain yet!

    Part II coming up soon......
     
  9. new shooter

    new shooter Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tubb\'s TMS part 1

    Do you still feal this way? I am getting a 7mm 111 long range hunter for grandson.Would you do it this way on a new rifle ? Thanks for info. Joe
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2010
  10. coyotezapper

    coyotezapper Well-Known Member

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    Re: Tubb\'s TMS part 1


    New Shooter,
    Do it, you won't be disappointed!!