Truth and cheat

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by Trshooter, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. Trshooter

    Trshooter Member

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    Hi,

    I'm tired, really tired to read or hear so many cheating "experts" say or advise hunter/shooter or simple novice to use two categories of new caliber....

    The trend of WSM, RSM and "pro" URM, EDGE, Lapua etc... The true is the following for hunting or LR shooting YOU DON'T NEED to look for new "exotic" calibers !!!!!!

    It's good to look into the future but in this case, it's a cheating lost of time... Firstly, If you use a "classical" 7mm Remington Magnum you have the best caliber for hunting and LR shooting.

    Only one rule...... it's to select only good component :

    Norma or Nosler Brass, CCI 250 primer, Sierra (160gr SBT) or Berger (168gr HPBT) Bullets and last but not the least a top powder like Norma MRP, Vithavuori VN, Hodgdon Retumbo or H1000. The Rifle ? a good custom rifle with a 26ic Match cut barrel or a good production rifle.

    With this "basic" equipment, you should be able to get usually +3050/3100 Fps with a 168gr and 3000 Fps with a 175 or 180gr bullet.

    Of course you can reach more speed with a "LARGE OVERBORE" like a 7mm STW, RUM or a 338 "SUPER SATELLITE" but for what price ?

    More recoil, more powder, brass cost. You will need a longer barrel to extract more velocity, that is to say an heavier rifle. Last but not the least, you'll wear out your barrel far quickly than with a 7mm RM.

    Some of you, are already thinking that they can get the same performance with their WSM honey... No buddy... The bad true is the following : Today classical Magnums like 7mm RM or 300 WM are down loaded !!!!! If you load your 7mm RM at the same pressure than a 7mm WSM, you will extract 100 fps or more with a 168grs bullet... New slow powders allow to maximize the 7mm RM potential.

    Last word.... you don't need a 300 or a 338 caliber !!!! a 7mm Remington Magnum with a 168gr Berger Bullet at 3050 Fps retaine more velocity, energy and less drop at 1000 yds than a 300 RUM... it's a fact !!!!! it stand with a 338 Lapua at 1500 Yds...... no comment !


    I have used the recipe of the 7mm Remington Magnum with a 160gr SBT or 168gr HPBT Berger Bullet with a 26 ic Barrel, stout load with top powder since many years now, and I can say you: it's the best in the field....

    Today, I have read so many posts, articles with bias.... it's funny !!!! Only once I have heard something of right : It comes from the "best of the west" crew team. They use and recommand a 7mm Remington Magnum with a 168gr Berger Bullet under a stout but safe Retumbo load through a 26 ic barrel.... I have no time to put "figure" so look their web site (video, forum, articles) and maybe you'll understand... the link is the following : The Best of the West - Home

    See you

    I hope to help some of us to make a right and reasonable choice !!!!
     
  2. Varmint Hunter

    Varmint Hunter Well-Known Member

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    Although my 7STW is as accurate as all get out, it just doesn't seem to have enough ummph for whitetails at more than 200-300yds. I had a 300RUM built recently but if that doesn't do it than I'll move up to something with a little more power.

    Shawn - how does that edge perform @ 500yds or so?
     

  3. Shawn Carlock

    Shawn Carlock Sponsor

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    Trshooter,

    I try to stay away from posts like this but .....

    I have a few questions for you.

    1. Concerning a 7 WSM vs a 7mm Rem Mag have you owned both and worked with both? Or is this a computer generated theory.
    I have owned, built & tested several of both. I have had opportunity to shoot both with the 168 gr Berger in question, I have found that your velocity of 3050-3100 with 7 Rem Mag to be right in the ballpark. My standard 7 WSM load (I have 2 of them) with the 168gr Berger runs 3062 and 3093 with a 24" and 26" barrels accordingly. I do see the 7 WSM to run the same velocities as the 7 Rem Mag.

    2. Concerning the 7 RM vs 300 RUM if you compare apples to apples and give the 300 RUM a 210 gr Berger the BC on both bullets is identical. The RUM sends the 210 3100-3150 out of a 26" tube pretty easy. So if we look at identicle conditions, sight to bore height etc you will quickly find that in bullet drop and wind drift they are in fact identical. In energy the 300 RUM has a 275-300 ft /lb advantage. At 1500 yards the energy of the 300 RUM is double that of the 7 RM. This is not what I call more energy, less drop and in "fact" being better than the 300 RUM.

    3. 7 RM vs big 338's like the Edge, Lapua etc. given a 338 300gr SMK with a BC of .768 (Berger of course is going to release a 338 300gr with a BC of over .900) at 2800 fps there is no question that the 7 RM shoots flatter at almost any given distance. It does however lack the wind drift abilities of the 300 SMK. In your example of 1500 yards you will see that the 7 RM shoots flatter by 4.50 MOA but drifts 1.00 moa more in the wind. The energy levels are almost comical with the 338 having 1192 ft/lbs and the 7 RM having a "whopping" 643 ft/lbs for 1/2 the energy on target that the 338 has. Again not exactly what I'd call running right with it.

    4. Have you taken a large number of game animals with the the above described rounds? I have taken and seen taken a large number of animals taken with all of the 3-4 rounds and the impact / terminal performance at distance with the 300 gr 338 bullet is clearly more potent.

    All of this being said I have nothing against the 7mm Rem Mag or any other 7mm round, I have a couple myself and love them. The thing that kind of reved me up about this post was the manner it was delivered. What exactly is a "cheating expert" anyway. Just because you like a certain caliber / round doesn't mean that you should put down the others. I see on your member line you have two posts, so maybe you are unfamilar with how this site works. We as a group offer positive opinions that are not anymore rough than necessary and support them with correct supporting information. Maybe a thread about the 7 RM being the best LRH round backed up by real comparison info would have been good instead of bashing certain rounds and the people who like/ promote their use. Along with being incorrect info I just don't see where your post was doing anything but telling everyone that according to you, anyone using something other than a 7 Rem Mag is a dumbass.
     
  4. Marine sniper

    Marine sniper Well-Known Member

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    You saved me a lot of typing Shawn....
     
  5. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Trshooter,

    Are you for real???

    Please explain to me how a 7mm Rem mag with a given bullet driven to 3050 fps can shoot flatter then a 300 RUM mag that can drive a bullet with the same or much higher BC to much higher velocity......

    If you like the 7mm Rem Mag, use it but leave it at that. I smell a troll here. YOu make two posts on LRH and your already hammering against many of the mainstream standards for long range hunting.

    Also if your shooting deer, pretty much any chambering will work. If your shooting bull elk at long range, it becomes much more critical. Two totally different games to play.

    Bullet energy means nothing as far as terminal performance are concerned on big game. Frontal area makes a much greater difference on terminal performance, The more frontal area you drive through a big game animal, the more vital tissue you damage, that my friend is fact.

    Also,bullet drop is also meaningless. Its easy to figure and consistant everywhere for the most part. Wind drift is what will make you miss and more importantly, WOUND big game. I would take a 1 moa reduction in drift any day over a 5 moa difference in bullet drop because its impossible to NAIL the down range wind conditions, not only horizontal but also vertical up and down drafts. This is where the larger caliber, higher BC bullets far outperform the smaller rounds.

    Baring central nervous system impacts, the larger caliber, heavier bullets have far more effect on big game at any range then the smaller caliber rounds, even if the smaller rounds are driven to much higher velocity.

    You spout some things that you claim are fact when in FACT, they are your opinion and in reality you are wrong in several ways. Seems you have a bone to pick with LRH if your posting topics like this on only your second post........

    I do not judge others by the number of posts they have made on here. Many have very few posts logged but have vast experience to offer. But I do judge someone by how they post and when you make posts like this after only your second post, red flags fly all over.

    Do you need a large magnum to kill game at long range, certainly not. On heavier game will the larger calibers make hits at long range easier, generally, YES. Are they more authoritative on big game at long range when soft tissue impacts are made, certainly YES.

    Again, My friend Shawn Carlock was more diplomatic as far as his reply to you but we both agree totally. Your claims seem to be based on opinion more then anything else as there is no question what is more effective on heavy game at long range, a 7mm Rem Mag of a 338 Edge. I would take the Edge EVERY time no matter if the range is 100 or 1000 yards.

    Nuff said, good post. Needed to get the blood running this morning.
     
  6. trueblue

    trueblue Well-Known Member

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    Shawn and Kirby,
    Both your responses were well taylored and very diplomatic. I commend you on your posts. I wonder if Trshooter posted this just to " stir the bucket "
     
  7. ATH

    ATH Well-Known Member

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    If I were to stick under 600 yards, I'd get a nice 7RM or 7WSM. Being that I shoot "medium" long range out to 800-1000 yards, I shoot a 300WM. I have seen the difference in hunting results between the cartridges listed above, I doubt you have? If I were in the game of true long range shooting 1000-1500+ yds, I'd have to get over my hatred of brakes and get a big .338. There are reasons they are used, and while long-range shooting is not my major hobby I know enough to listen to those for which it is. Certainly more reliable than a 2-post troll who thinks there is only one right answer here.
     
  8. bwaites

    bwaites Well-Known Member

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    A little off topic, but ATH, you seem to indicate that you get better results at 800-1000 from the WM vs. WSM.

    I thought the two could be loaded to essentially the same performance levels, with the WSM being a little more efficient on powder?

    Bill
     
  9. Boss Hoss

    Boss Hoss Well-Known Member

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    With all of the new powder, bullet selections and development/testing that have been performed over the last 30 years the opening post just has no credence.

    There are some that think a Desoto was the best automobile ever made-----it is always about being the best so with that being said -- rant over..
     
  10. MagMan

    MagMan Well-Known Member

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    Trshooter,

    You need to sit down with some ballistic software and crunch some numbers. Though I believe if you knew how to do that you wouldn't have made such a silly post.

    You mean I don't need 2,000 lb of energy at 1000 yards.......I guess I'll have to back up then.
     
  11. Varmint Hunter

    Varmint Hunter Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmm - thought my post would have gotten a rise out of him. :>)
     
  12. phorwath

    phorwath Well-Known Member

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    My 7mm RMs max out at ~1000-1100 yds based on diminished terminal velocity (loss of bullet expansion velocity) and therefore uncertain terminal performance - on big game animals. They're certainly more reliable killers at less than 900yd than at 1100 yd. Comparing them in effectiveness to a 338 Lapua at 1500 yds? That's unreal to the point I think you've crossed over in toothfairy land.

    I'll give you this. The 7mm RM is a good performer for <900 yd hunting of big game. But if I spent the majority of my hunting efforts setting up to shoot big game at ranges >900 yds, I will select a cartridge with more HP at those ranges - I think you called them exotics. Truth is, some of them are plain-Jane factory loaded cartridges.
     
  13. Derek M.

    Derek M. Well-Known Member

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    When I read the OP, I thought to myself, ok, this guy is honestly trying to make a point--a biased one, but still. Unfortunately, the substance of the entire post is stoked with opinions and some facts. Plus, I HATE it when someone else tells others what they need or don't need.

    If I want a 270 AM, or 338 Edge, or a 7mm Rem Mag, that's my business.

    If we or the riflebuilders want to recommend a new hot shot caliber, that is our/their business and quite frankly it is an enthusiat forum, so no one is being cheated when they ask for opinions and get them.

    If you see a thread where someone is asking for a caliber recommendation, feel free to respond with your opinion and experience, just like the rest of us, but I think it is rather silly that you think someone has been cheated or some caliber has been cheated....as if it has feelings.
     
  14. J E Custom

    J E Custom Well-Known Member

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    Trshooter

    There is a lot of good advice in what every one is saying so I would recomend that
    you pay attention to these guys .

    I am a big fan of the 7 Rem mag "BUT I have many other calibres of rifles because
    there is no (perfict one rifle for everything ) that exist.

    The very best rifles are those that are purpose built for the type of game,terrain,
    conditions most likely to be encountered day in and day out,average distance of
    shots taken and even shooting position.

    An example= If I were going to hunt white tail deer in east texas where it is very
    thick with trees and brush and the longest shot would be 200 yrds almost any rifle
    smaller than a 7 rem mag would work very well . But if I lived in Wyoming where
    average shots are over 400 yrds and lots of wind I would consider a 300 mag a
    minimum and the 338's about right.

    There was a famous PH named Bell who used a 7/57 mauser to kill elephant. but
    not wanting to end up as elephant toe jam I would not recomend any thing smaller
    than a 416 for the tuskers,But if a person wants to use a smaller rifle then that
    is his decision and responsiblity.

    As some of the guys said we all try to recomend a calibre based on our experance
    and I personally will never tell someone there is only one calibre that will work in
    fact if you read enough post you will find that most recomend more than one based
    on what the persons requirements were.

    As to cheating: The only thing being cheated is the game if the wrong weapon is
    used.

    I'm not piling on Just though that you were uninformed and needed some direction.

    J E CUSTOM