This may have been answerd but i need more Info

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by Coyote Slayer, Jul 29, 2001.

  1. Coyote Slayer

    Coyote Slayer Well-Known Member

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    Ok here we go I hunt wolves and coyotes all winter and my two main guns are the 17 VLR and my 224 Clark for long range work out to 1000 yards.this year while walking out of a wood line on a two mile lake there was a fox now I normaly do not take foxes but this was a great red.so set up the rest checked the rangefinder and saw that he was out of what I thought was in my set up but did the math and went ten more clicks off the 22 moa and took the shot there must have been a slight breez that i could not feal and did not show on my wind meater and so the bullet broke bouth hips and put him down like a house fell on him the range was 1825 yards.
    When I got to him he tried to move and I put a 22lr in to him and it was over.
    But if this would have been a 122lb wolf or a 52 lb coyote he would have been gone. Now the question. I new that I was up aganist a wall for the clark and where i work with a mess like that you could be on the 6:00 news so as i have said i have a new 6.5-284 with a 30 inch barrel and 1 in nine twist that will be here in about two weeks.
    Is this the better rifle for those type of shots out to about 2000 yards now with what my job is I just can not pass on a shot I can try to get clowser or call them in and i have looked at some of the rifles that are talked about on this board but I am on the ground moveing all the time day after day I looked at the 338-416 but an eighty lb rifle is a bit much to carry up one mountain and down the next. The Clark has never let me down and at 1000 I do not think she ever will but we went past what I knew she could do.
    I have heard nothing but great things about the 6.5-284 but moast shoot papper.
    I know this is a hard Question to answer and i read the other poast to see if my answer was in there and if it was I really missed it and i am sorry to rehash the topic.
    Now to get the Idea that i do not mind a heavy rifle my 17 VLR is 28 lbs and that is with the nightforce 5.5 X 22 X 56 on it and six rounds in the Rifle and my clark is right at 33lbs was there a better CAL out there that I missed I guess this is what this all gets down to I looked at 7mm/61sharp and hart, the 7mmSTW, even the plan jane 7mm Mag.
    Well sorry for the long wind guys and gals to get to a point any help is better than none thanks and have a great Sunday:Coyote Slayer
     
  2. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

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    Hello

    Maybe I'm missing something in your post but, 22MOA plus 10 clicks for an 1800 yd plus shot from a 224 Clark?

    I have a 22/284 which we can compare to the Clark and it has a 30" barrel with an 8 twist and I use the 80 Sierra MK bullets. The speed I run mine is 3300 FPS becasue of the accuracy. I have run it to 3500 FPS if I didn't care about the brass any longer. I'm most certain the Clark is not doing much better then that(3500 fps) in the velocity arena using an 80 grain bullet. Then again, maybe I'm missing something.

    Running the Ballistics at 3500 FPS with an 80 Gr Sierra MK bullet (.420BC) I find that you would need 22 MOA ("88" 1/4 Min clicks) at 1000 yds and 88 MOA ("352" 1/4 Min clicks at 1800 yards. An extra 10 clicks would not have made the trip at the reported range you hit the Fox.

    My question is, what rangefinder are you using and is your zero scope setting 100 yards to start with.

    If you have a Nightforce scope with the ladder grid, you would have had to be all the way down on the last grid at least and then maybe 10 more clicks.

    My 22/284 with the 80 gr bullet has penitrated a hardwood bowling pin at 1000 yards and the exit holes were about the size of a silver dollar. It would most certainly kill at that range.

    I'm sorry if I have missed something but, 1800 yds with 224 bullet and only 22 moa PLUS 10 CLICKS from a 100 yd zero is impossible.

    The 6.5/300 Weatherby with a 30" barrel and 8 twist would be my pick if I were in your local and doing what you are doing. That combination will knock those 122# wolves off their feet and keep them down.

    Good luck to you.

    Darryl Cassel

    [ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
     

  3. Warren Jensen

    Warren Jensen Well-Known Member

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    Darryl,

    You are right. The math doesn't work.

    Coyote Slayer,

    We are not questioning you veracity, just your math. Please check your numbers and get back to us. I also have a .224/284 and am real familiar with it's capabilities. Tell us more about the 224 Clarke, like it's powder capacity, chronographed velocities, etc.

    A 6.5/284 would be a better choice, because of a better selection of higher BC bullets.

    Again, no offense intended, but on this board we tend to deal in the details.
     
  4. Coyote Slayer

    Coyote Slayer Well-Known Member

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    As far as powder I use a 4 foot drop tube and it puts 60gr of 8700 right in there and i use a Gamma chrony and I get a readding of 3729 to be exact and use a PC for windows for a computer program.I have never had with my brass or primmer pocket and still use the orignal 100 that i made when i got the rifle I had hand dies made for it for just neck and bullet work and full length resize after the second shot and have had no problem with head space problems or case streach.
    Like i said i only ues the rifle for long range shots and there has been only three hundred rounds through the rifle .
    NO I never would doubt that any one here would not beleave me or any other such things I have to addmit I was in a lot in shock when I made the hit my self.
    As to the scope it has a 450 yard dead zero and I did go to the last crosshair or the RR1 scope matter of fact I used the bottom line and set it on the top of the front schoulder so it was a 450 zero plus 22moa with an added 10 and for the first time, I got to use a Leica geo the large one not the 800 yard model I got it from one of the gides in the area wish i only had the 2500 to buy one for my self LOL LOL and I two have hit things out to 1000 and got a great exit hole but on this fox there was no bullet expansion it went in and out that has never happened to me ever with out some kind of expansion.And again please do not think I would think bad of you gentleman you are the best in the field that is why i asked the question [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] have a great sunday:Coyote Slayer PS the fox was in so good of shap i got $40 dollars in the round for him I hope this covers what you need to know and again thank you for all the help

    [ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: Coyote Slayer ]
     
  5. Warren Jensen

    Warren Jensen Well-Known Member

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    Coyote Slayer,

    At sea level, and a 450 yds zero, I still get 69.8 minutes of superelevation to 1800 yds. At 6000 ft elevation and 100 deg. F. I get 43.1. This is with a 3750 fps muzzle velocity and a consistant flight BC of .420. That bullet will have considerable BC decay as it will precess quite badly past 1200 yds. What did you allow for spin drift?

    Again, I think your figures are in error somewhere. Please check them. If they were close I would give you the benefit of the doubt. They are not close.
     
  6. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

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    Hello Coyote Slayer

    We are not doubting your hunting or shooting expertise in any way. Please take this into consideration.
    I shoot a 338 bullet with almost twice the BC of the 80 Gr 224 bullet, with a lot of powder behind it, and have seen what happens at ranges over 1500 yards.

    I ran your numbers on the Oehler program and here is what I came up with.
    I gave you 3750 (gave you a bit more here) FPS muzzle velocity, a .420BC for the bullet, dialed in a 450 yard zero, at 6000 ft elevation in 30 degree temp.
    Here are the results I came up with.
    At 1800 yards you would have needed 53.8 MOA from the above figures. At that range your velocity would have been 1035 FPS and the energy would have been 190 FP.

    To be realistic of the shot. At 1300 yards with the above values you gave us,you would have needed 23.3 MOA above the 450 yd zero which is consistant with what you said. Your bullet would have been going 1481 FPS and the energy would have been 390 FP.
    This is in line with what you said your math came up with.
    Therefore, I question the Rangefinder at this point.
    I believe it read you 500 Plus yards further then what the yardage really was. By the numbers I came up with the shot was in fact at or near 1300 yards.
    Regardless, it was a fine shot.
    I have not seen ANY and I stress ANY commercial rangefinder that was totally accurate in all weather conditions like the military models. I have friends who have the same rangefinder you used and said they have had problems with accuracy from shot to shot at extended ranges and in different weather conditions.
    The most powerfull laser available (they are not eye safe) are the military Russian and the US Litton made units. These are extremely accurate and will repeat shot after shot in ANY weather condition change.

    To sum this up, I think you made a fine shot on the fox but, I believe the range was closer to 1300 yards rather then 1800 yards as per your MOA used to get to him.

    As you know, all ballistics programs are not the same however, they are very close.
    I'm sure Warren's program is probably the best of the three of us but, I like the Oehler program out of the ones I have tried.
    I think all of us are in the ballpark on this one.
    The range (1800 yards) is in question though.

    Good hunting to you.
    Darryl Cassel

    [ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]

    [ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Darryl Cassel ]
     
  7. Coyote Slayer

    Coyote Slayer Well-Known Member

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    Dear MR Cassel and Mr Jensen you are right I did make a large mistake on the set up when i said ten clicks I ment as a new commer to this from the ZERO to Zero witch is quite a bit more than 10 clicks matter of fact on my scope it comes out to 42 clicks to be exact and with the 22 moa of lift from my scope that comes out to 64 Moa, and with to the point of getting all the Info it was -48 degrees with a high over cast and no wind felt and i was at 5900 ft above sea leavel and my garmen 12XL GPS gave me a reading Of 1 mile and a tenth I was just interested in seeing how far it was I knew it was the longest shot i have ever made to this date plus i had to walk all the way over there anyway LOL LOL LOL so i just wanted to see how far I went.The point to me was not rather i made a super shot or to Brag I am not that kind of person the point was that the fox was still alive and i really wanted to get the info on better rifles and loads for long Range work to make me better at my job and not have to pack a rifle over what the weight i pack now. I am interested in this 6.5x 300 is it like the 7 X 61 sharp and hart only better and will i have a schoulder left at the end of the day LOL LOL LOL LOL Please do not waste any more of your important time on the yardage to me now it is not very inportant. I have lived in the state of Alaska for the last 21 years and watch many people miss a spike fork bull moose at 100 yards and to hit a fox at any range past 500 yards is a great thing and there would be a lot of back slapping going on and no sir i would have no idea how to add for the bullit spin again thank you for all the time you bouth put in to this one question I can only wish that with time i can gain the abilty to beable to do what you to men can do :Sincerly Yours Roy

    [ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Coyote Slayer ]

    [ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: Coyote Slayer ]
     
  8. Warren Jensen

    Warren Jensen Well-Known Member

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    Coyote Slayer,

    Under any method of evaluation it was an extraordinary shot. Congratulations.
     
  9. Darryl Cassel

    Darryl Cassel Well-Known Member

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    Coyote Slayer

    Yes, it was a fine shot and a fox is a VERY small target. Good going.
    Keep us informed as to your progress this year on the fur bearers.

    I envy your life style there. Sounds like the true, "last frontier."

    Darryl Cassel
     
  10. Dave King

    Dave King Well-Known Member

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    Coyote Slayer

    Let me also add that it was a very fine shot.

    I've been watching this thread from the first post and, like the others, am detail oriented. No disrespect meant but like Warren said, we get into the details and the data didn't match well. This data discrepancy quickly, as you saw, drew comments and questions.

    As you are now keenly aware, the folks here at Long Range Hunting are here to learn and provide accurate information.

    Again, I'm glad you got the data figured out and we're on our way again to answering your initial questions.

    My observations on long range small caliber terminal ballistics has been that when the velocity gets too low and bullet is essentially a non-expanding solid. The small size of the .224 bullet and the short length don't allow for much damage due to tumble (a fox is a small critter and the bullet may not get an opportunity to tumble).
    I've found that a longer bullet seems to work better at long range, twofold reason, better shape and higher BC, and when it upsets (tumbles) it makes a large wound channel.
    I used a .243 with 70 grain Ballistic Tips on deer at distances past 500 yards, double lung shots, and generally had pass through wounds and a dead critter in short order. But I later switched to a 6mm-06 and the 107 MatchKing and saw considerable difference in wound effect, some of this was certainly due to the faster 6mm-06 but I believe the long 107 MK had a great deal to do with the significant difference.

    On a fox at those distances I don't know what would work well, but on a larger animal the bullet gets a little opportunity to 'dance around' a little. I guess the fox issue would be to go far a bullet that makes a large hole on a pass through because I don't believe you'll find a bullet that will fragment of mushroom at those low velocities.
     
  11. cronhelm

    cronhelm Well-Known Member

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    A one shot kill at 1800 yards on a fox!?

    I bow and prostrate myself before you as a Varming Hunting/Long-Range Shooting GOD!

    Regardles of the luck factor involved in such a shot it takes some serious skill to even put the bullet into the right neighborhood at that sort of range on such a small target.

    Congratulations! You should be proud of such an accomplishment and tell people about it. The only problem is that outside of this board you are going to find that most won't believe it. I have noticed a certain glazing over of the eyes when speaking to others of shots exceeding the 1000yd accepted norm.

    With regard to the range determination issue. Currently I am using a GPS for this function which is a very good method (read less expensive) of removing the errors inherent in long-range laser determinations. The only problem is that the GPS has to physically go all the way out there to make the measurement.

    Dave,

    Have you looked at the 95gr Berger VLD for your long-range 6mm shooting? This bullet has the same BC as the 107 MK but the 12gr less weight allows that much more velocity for the really long shots.

    Peter