The .338 Rogue

[Pdvdh]

Re: The .338 Rogue - C-O-W Fireforming

Got the barrel back on, the barreled action into the stock, and mounted my scope. Selected the new Vortex 3-15x42mm Razor HD LH with the HSR-4 reticle.

I'm fireforming factory Lapua cases using 25.5gr Blue Dot over CCI 350 Large Magnum pistol primers, with the cases packed full of Cream of Wheat. Providing this recipe with Blue Dot in case anyone else wants to fireform using Blue Dot and Cream of Wheat. Started at 19.5gr, and increased to 25.5gr. Anywhere between 25-26 grains would work well.

I'm using up some 30 year old reloading supplies. Happened to have the pistol primers and the Blue Dot pistol powder in the reloading room. The Alaskan price on the CCI Pistol primers was $1.30. Probably purchased here in the late 1970s, based on the sticker/store they were purchased from. That means they would have been selling for $0.90 - $1.05 in the lower 48 States.

 

[Timber338]

Very cool... I am anxiously awaiting some pictures of the finished rifle!

 

[Pdvdh]

Another tip for those fireforming cases using C-O-W or bullets jammed into the lands.

Place a thin layer of Hornady Unique resizing lubricant on the exterior of the cartridge casing forward of the belt area, all the way up to the forward lip of the case necks. This will help prevent any Cream of Wheat from baking to the exterior of the case neck. I think it will also help to reduce case head stretching should the case head not be perfectly held in contact with the bolt face during fireforming.

Case head stretching occurs when the body of the casing grips the sidewalls of the rifle chamber while the case head isn't held intact against the bolt face. The case sidewall first gets blown firmly against the chamber sidewalls, essentially glued to the chamber under high pressure expansion. Then as case pressure continues to build, the case head gets driven back into the bolt face while stretching away from the case sidewalls (which can't move backwards toward the bolt face). Lubing the the sidewalls of your cases forward of the expansion ring that forms just forward of the case head should weaken the bond between the sidewall of the case and the chamber, allowing the case sidewall to shift rearward with the case head, perhaps reducing case head stretch. If the sidewalls of the casing can slip back against the bolt face with the case head as pressure builds, then the shoulder is more apt to blow forward, rather than the case head stretching rearward away from the body of the brass casing. I haven't done anything to prove this, so don't hold my feet to the fire. But the theory of operation is completely sound. And it doesn't take long to add this lubing step. So it's now a SOP (standard operating procedure) in my fireforming routine.

I started out lubing only the exterior of the case necks with Hornady Unique to eliminate cooked Cream of Wheat bonding to the exterior of the case necks while fireforming. Worked very good for that purpose. And as I thought about the benefits, I began lubing the entire body of the cases with Unique resizing lube also.

Imperial resizing lube should work also, but I prefer Hornady Unique, because it applies more easily in a thinner coating, and it removes more easily also.

 

[Pdvdh]

Re: The .338 Lapua 37* Rogue - First Grouping & Load Data

On the 4th of July I fired the first nine shots thru the 338 Rogue, after mounting a 3-15x42mm Vortex Razor HD LH scope. Here's a picture of the first group, and a spreadsheet containing the loads that delivered this group at a distance of 280 yds.

The round (Rnd) number from the following spreadsheet that identifies each round's POI on the target is written next to each bullet hole. Loads 5, 6, 7, and 8, impacted within 1 1/8" of one another at 280yds. Powder charges for loads 5, 6, 7, and 8 were 104, 105, 106, and 107 grains of RL 33.

I register on the Obsessive Compulsive Disorder spectrum, so there's a butt-load of collected data included on the spreadsheet for each load. I receive 4 recorded bullet velocities for each bullet fired from a triplicate chronograph setup. Only the primary channel velocity from the Oehler 35P is shown on the spreadsheet, so only 3 of the 4 recorded velocities are presented for each bullet fired.

My chronographs were set up 40' off the muzzle, so the velocities in blue font are the corrected muzzle velocities. It look's as though I'm going to max out - pressure wise - at about 2965fps MV with bullets jammed 0.012", using Alliant RL 33. If I jumped the bullets 0.020", I could likely achieve higher MV.

The barrel is a 28" long nitrided Bartlein. The Berger 300gr OTM bullets are HBN coated.

Round #1 was fired with the bore freshly coated with HBN. This HBN residue left in the bore after pre-swabbing the clean bore with an alcohol / HBN mixture increases pressure (and velocity) on the first bullet fired down the bore. This has been experienced with each rifle I've chronographed after HBN swabbing a cleaned bore. This explains why the 96gr load actually fired at a slightly higher pressure and MV than round #2, even though the round #2 was charged with 2 more grains of powder than round #1.

The progressive rate of increased velocity is shown for each load compared to the prior load, in the column to the right of the MVs. Two columns farther to the right are the maximum recorded differences in velocities for each bullet fired, between the three chronographs. The maximum difference in recorded velocity for any bullet fired was 4fps, which occurred on rounds #1 and #9.

The three columns to the far right on the spreadsheet show the case head diameters, pre-fired and post-fired, and the magnitude of any measured case head expansion. The 108 grain load did swell the case head about 0.0006". The 108 grain load also impacted ~2" lower than the 4 prior rounds.

BAT actions are slow to show pressure signs such as stiff bolt lift. There were no plunger marks on any of the case heads. And absolutely no bolt lift resistance.

It look's like I'm maxing out pressure-wise just slightly quicker than Greg Duley was with his .338 Lapua Improved with RL33, but Greg's Lapua Improved cartridge is probably blown out a little larger than mine, with slightly great case capacity.

I have no experience with Lapua's 338 Lapua brass. Anybody know if after the first firing and slight case head expansion, if these Lapua case heads and primer pockets will then endure similarly pressured firings with less expansion on subsequent rounds? I plan to load the 108 grain charged casing a few more times with additional 108 grain charges in order to measure and monitor any further, progressive case head expansion.

 

[Pdvdh]

I want to add that LongRangeHunting Forum member and Sponser shortgrass performed the gunsmithing services that mounted the Bartlein barrel to my BAT action.

Nice work Ted.

 

[HARPERC]

Still following thanks!

To steal from a friend it's just OC-no disorder involved.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

My experience with the Lapua brass is that you have to almost do something wrong to get loose primers. I am not as OC as you are Paul, as I have not measured case heads to see how much expansion took place. I work on the feel of seating pressure of the primers. The Lapua brass will take many firings on max load before you notice loose primer pockets. I have seen heavy extractor marks on the case head with no noticeable change in primer pocket. In my personal rifles I am ok with a slight ejector mark on the case head for top performance. On customer rifles I will back down from the slight ejector mark.

My 338 just got done as well and has about 15 rounds down the barrel doing break in and case forming. Mine is a 40* shoulder. Hoping to get out and shoot somemore this week.

Steve

 

[Pdvdh]

My experience with the Lapua brass is that you have to almost do something wrong to get loose primers. I am not as OC as you are Paul, as I have not measured case heads to see how much expansion took place.
Steve

Thanks Steve. I don't always measure case head expansion. But when I'm working up loads in a new rifle/cartridge in the effort to ID a maximum pressure load, I normally do. A quality dial caliper doesn't fail, when all other indicators can. If the case heads expand 0.0005" or more, I know that's about it.

With my case, I've just learned that 107gr of RL 33 is ~100% load density when I jam bullets into the lands 0.012". I tried loading 108.5gr RL 33 with a 0.020" jump, rather than the 0.012" jam, and the bullets won't hold in the necks due to powder compression resistance. I can begin to hear and feel a little powder compression at 107.5gr RL 33 with bullets seated for a 0.012" jam.

Greg Duley measured 65,000 psi pressure with 107.5gr RL 33 in his Lapua Improved, with a MV of 2980fps. Your's will probably pressure out similarly if you use RL 33, as Duley stated his Lapua Improved chamber was blow out to the max.

Duley also loaded up to 70,000 psi pressure using RL 33 in his rifles, with a MV of 3,020fps. He'll run stronger custom actions up to 70,000 psi pressures. But he didn't share the powder charge for his 70,000psi loading.

Greg Duley's loading data with measured pressures. Greg loves RL 33. I want to note that my improved version has a bit less volume capacity than Greg's, and his top powder charge loads generate a little too much pressure in my 338 Rogue chamber/cartridge. So reader/user be aware. Work up to maximum powder charge in your rifle in a safe manner.

My chamber design is able to fully utilize RL 33 at 100% load density, and reach maximum chamber pressures with the bullets jammed 0.012". I can also seat a little deeper and jump the bullets 0.020" without excessive powder compression with a 107.5gr charge of Rl 33. Turned out nice, because I intended to use RL 33. And I now know it shoots well with RL 33. I need to chronograph a little more and see what kind of ES/SD I'm getting. In my past experience, ES/SD improves with RL 33 with the bullets seated close to the lands, and even better with the bullets jammed 0.010-0.015".

Right now I'm glad I had shortgrass extend my throat 0.075" with his throating reamer.

 

[fmajor]

I don't have anything to contribute to this thread *at all* other than a big, hearty thank you to all y'all for taking the time to post up data and print outs and especially rifle pron!!!

I don't yet have a big rifle, but the information you make available sure is valuable to me if i can ever get into that realm.

 

[fmajor]

QUESTION??!? Re: The .338 Rogue and other big 338s

Is 3,000-3,200fps with a 300gr .338 bullet strictly the domain of the Chey-Tac case?

It is amazing to me, especially given the expert level your folks have, that unless going to a Chey-Tac case, there is yet to be found a 338 chambering/case that easily achieves 3,000-3,200fps w/a 300gr pill.

There have been a few like the 338 Excalibur and Kirby Allen's 338 Raptor (which he is not chambering iirc), but otherwise nothing in between.

I have read (and bookmarked) many discussions here and elsewhere on this topic, but there just doesn't seem to be anything in between the big 338's;
1) 338 Lapua/Lapua IMP
2) 338 Edge/338 Terminator +P+P++++ (or whatever)
3) 338/375 Weatherby

and the HUGE 338's
1) 338 Chey-Tac
2) 338 Snipe-Tac
3) 338 Big Baer

Am i missing something? Is this range (3,000-3,200fps) just something to consider using the Chey-Tac case for with low/moderate loads?

Not meaning to de-rail/hi-jack.....

 

[Pdvdh]

Re: QUESTION??!? Re: The .338 Rogue and other big 338s

It is amazing to me,... ...there is yet to be found a 338 chambering/case that easily achieves 3,000-3,200fps w/a 300gr pill...

Google search LRKM and Defensive Edge. I believe Shawn Carlock offers a cartridge that does that, with a powder capacity midway between the 338 Lapua Improved and the Cheytac cartridge. 125-130gr powder charges. Close to 3,200fps with 300gr bullets out of a 32" barrel.

I'm a backpack hunter and my cartridge/rifle was designed with that being the greater consideration. I haven't researched the class of cartridge you're describing. My only knowledge is incidental reading on this and another Forum.

 

[7mmShooter]

Re: QUESTION??!? Re: The .338 Rogue and other big 338s

Google search LRKM and Defensive Edge. I believe Shawn Carlock offers a cartridge that does that, with a powder capacity midway between the 338 Lapua Improved and the Cheytac cartridge. 125-130gr powder charges. Close to 3,200fps with 300gr bullets out of a 32" barrel.

I'm a backpack hunter and my cartridge/rifle was designed with that being the greater consideration. I haven't researched the class of cartridge you're describing. My only knowledge is incidental reading on this and another Forum.

Jeff (Broz) was getting right around 3200fps with the original throat in his 338 Terminator LRKM that Shawn built for him, the new throat gets it around 3125fps IIRC

 

[fmajor]

Re: QUESTION??!? Re: The .338 Rogue and other big 338s

Google search LRKM and Defensive Edge. I believe Shawn Carlock offers a cartridge that does that, with a powder capacity midway between the 338 Lapua Improved and the Cheytac cartridge. 125-130gr powder charges. Close to 3,200fps with 300gr bullets out of a 32" barrel.

I'm a backpack hunter and my cartridge/rifle was designed with that being the greater consideration. I haven't researched the class of cartridge you're describing. My only knowledge is incidental reading on this and another Forum.

Jeff (Broz) was getting right around 3200fps with the original throat in his 338 Terminator LRKM that Shawn built for him, the new throat gets it around 3125fps IIRC

Thanks fellas!

Yes, i've read about Shawn's Terminator and the LRKM (from it's early development - waiting for each installment/pic posted!).

I guess i wish there was a brass case of the 'just-right' capacity without having to really tweak throat dimensions, leade, etc.

In fact, i used to visit his (Shawn's) site - longrangeonly iirc - a good bit as well. I miss seeing Jeff post around here, but after seeing some of the side-ways discussions and agitators (whom seem to have all vanished....thankfully!), i understand why he may not be around much.

I sure am enjoying the information you all posting about this 338 Rogue though!

 

[SHRTSHTR]

Thanks Steve. I don't always measure case head expansion. But when I'm working up loads in a new rifle/cartridge in the effort to ID a maximum pressure load, I normally do. A quality dial caliper doesn't fail, when all other indicators can. If the case heads expand 0.0005" or more, I know that's about it.

With my case, I've just learned that 107gr of RL 33 is ~100% load density when I jam bullets into the lands 0.012". I tried loading 108.5gr RL 33 with a 0.020" jump, rather than the 0.012" jam, and the bullets won't hold in the necks due to powder compression resistance. I can begin to hear and feel a little powder compression at 107.5gr RL 33 with bullets seated for a 0.012" jam.

Greg Duley measured 65,000 psi pressure with 107.5gr RL 33 in his Lapua Improved, with a MV of 2980fps. Your's will probably pressure out similarly if you use RL 33, as Duley stated his Lapua Improved chamber was blow out to the max.

Duley also loaded up to 70,000 psi pressure using RL 33 in his rifles, with a MV of 3,020fps. He'll run stronger custom actions up to 70,000 psi pressures. But he didn't share the powder charge for his 70,000psi loading.

Greg Duley's loading data with measured pressures. Greg loves RL 33.

My chamber design is able to fully utilize RL 33 at 100% load density, and reach maximum chamber pressures with the bullets jammed 0.012". I can also seat a little deeper and jump the bullets 0.020" without excessive powder compression with a 107.5gr charge of Rl 33. Turned out nice, because I intended to use RL 33. And I now know it shoots well with RL 33. I need to chronograph a little more and see what kind of ES/SD I'm getting. In my past experience, ES/SD improves with RL 33 with the bullets seated close to the lands, and even better with the bullets jammed 0.010-0.015".

Right now I'm glad I had shortgrass extend my throat 0.075" with his throating reamer.

Hi Paul,

Glad to see it is all coming together for you! Hope RL33 works out for you but if you want to try another powder give N570 a try. You will get the same velocity or more and less powder by about 3-4g less with 570. I am running 3025fps with 300g OTM's, HBN coated at 103g of powder. My 338 LAI has a 30" Lilja. N570 is more temp stable than RL33...this is why I use it.

I have a 32" fluted Krieger at my smiths waiting to be installed after hunting season. This barrel will get the Nitride treatment.

This thread has been a great and I have learned a lot about the Nitride and barrel cleaning process, Thanks to you and Shortgrass for this informative thread and congratulations on the new riflegun)

Ray