Terminal ballistics- Which would you prefer

[Broz]

I'm looking for a bullet that penetrates then opens aggressively at close range then the farther you step out it blows slower and at 600+ you get consistent exits that are created by multiple bullet and bone frags, not just a bullet hole!

Exactly.

Jeff

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Montana Rifleman - I didn't think it would be confusing but to make it clear, though not stated precisely that way, all of the questions were related to the kill. The last one was nonsensical.

I don't think many people here were taking 800 to 1,000 yard shots on Elk 35 years ago. Especially with homemade lead bullets. But I could be wrong. Last year, at the same ranch, another kid insisted on using his .243 to kill some kind of exotic deer, the genetics of which escapes me. He made a good shot on the animal. It took a while to find due to the conditions (heavy, thorny brush) but we found it. It was a lot bigger than a native white-tail. One hole. There was obviously enough internal damage to kill the deer but if "I" had to make the same choice, the .243 would stay in the case.

toddc- The intent of the question wasn't which bullet do you use. That question would get a WHOLE lot more attention than this little thread. The question was (or was intended to be) what do you want the bullet to do- kill with hole all the way through so you can track the blood trail or kill with one hole.

Mike, did you intend this to be an objective survey/discussion or a subjective bash the "other guy" thread?

I have read dozens and participated in a few of these bullet/terminal performance threads and the vast majority of them turn into ****ing contests.

I like to go by the "Big Boy" philosophy, meaning that we are all big boys and accountable for our own decisions, as I mentioned in another thread when a couple of members accused me of having too hot a load without having any firsthand experience with my rifle and load.

There are a lot of highly experienced shooters/hunters in these forums, all of whom I have a great deal of respect for, who have quite different views on bullets.

Your reply that the 3rd option was nonsensical is a bit over the top IME. The processing part is nonsensical, but there are hunters who prefer bullets that get the job done with minimal damage and that is not nonsensical. If you browse through the GS site you'll see that Gerard Schultz, who manufactures monometal bullets, prefers small caliber, lightweight bullets pushed to very high velocities to take medium to large game up to and including Kudu. He has anecdotal stories and and pictures of terminal performance to back up his view. If someone wants to call him or others irresponsible, exagerator or lair, I suppose they have to privilege to do so, but I find it regrettable.

So, assuming this is an objective thread, I'll chime in with my limited experience.

As I said I prefer a bullet that gets the job done. I lean to the monometals because they stay intact and usually produce a significant permanent wound channel and then exit. That said, I'll use other bullets to get the job done if they happen to be more accurate, better BC or whatever.

I do prefer bullets that exit but the vast majority of them have not left gaping exits. A couple of my anecdotal stories...

Shot a very nice B&C Big Horn in the breaks that I guess was about 300 lbs. I drilled him @ about 200 yds with a 7 RM and 160 NP's. 1st shot, he shuddered and stumbled forward a couple of steps, then just stood there. Jacked in another and fired again. Nothing, didn't flinch. Repaet, and again nothing. Started to wonder if I had missed the 2nd and 3rd. Jacked in a 4th and put it through the top of his spine. He fell over. Took him home and skinned him out and found 3 entries that you could have covered with a half dollar. The exits, all close together, were about nickle to quarter size. Not gaping. The 2nd and third had basically slightly enlarged the original wound channel.. Moral, the first NP deposited a lot of energy and effectively killed the sheep where he stood but also exited taking some energy.

Same 7mm and same 160 NP's. Called in a very nice and very large bodied 6x6 down in ID, to about 15 yrds and put one through the ribs. His entire huge body shook violently and he lept up and did a 180, took a single bound down hill and piled up. Again no gaping exist. In both cases minimal meat damage but the bulls lungs were mush.

We all have our experiences and preferences. There is no "perfect" bullet. Love hearing about others experiences but not really interested in the speculative "What ifs" and bashing.

Cheers,

Mark

 

[D.ID]

I want a bullet that makes 90 degree turn and veers off to the bigger buck I did not see circles around it to hit it from a safe direction right in the lungs so it jumps out were I can see it collapse and then shoots a flair up so I know it was my hit........ Bullets are often over thought.................. I want it to kill and kill quick................ Does not matter how it does it as long as I understand the best way to use it. Hard bullets need hard targets like heavy bone, soft hits threw the lungs.....do not. If you want to split the difference use a Heavy weight lightly constructed bullet. It really all comes down to placement. At long range I have never sean a shot that HAD to go threw the shoulder. Unless the guy behind the gun was inpatient he could wait for a better angle. At close range it is different, speed is more necessary and placement options are more limited And that is why I prefer med-long range hunting.

 

[Mike6158]

I'm looking for a bullet that penetrates then opens aggressively at close range then the farther you step out it blows slower and at 600+ you get consistent exits that are created by multiple bullet and bone frags, not just a bullet hole!

If I could go back and add this as a choice I would. Well said.

 

[Joe King]

I want a bullet that makes 90 degree turn and veers off to the bigger buck I did not see circles around it to hit it from a safe direction right in the lungs so it jumps out were I can see it collapse and then shoots a flair up so I know it was my hit........ Bullets are often over thought.................. I want it to kill and kill quick................ Does not matter how it does it as long as I understand the best way to use it. Hard bullets need hard targets like heavy bone, soft hits threw the lungs.....do not. If you want to split the difference use a Heavy weight lightly constructed bullet. It really all comes down to placement. At long range I have never sean a shot that HAD to go threw the shoulder. Unless the guy behind the gun was inpatient he could wait for a better angle. At close range it is different, speed is more necessary and placement options are more limited And that is why I prefer med-long range hunting.

I want one of those too! Maybe Byan could engineer use one

 

[Buttermilk]

My preference is for a bullet that exits after doing significant amounts of internal damage.

However, the last deer I shot was at 100-110 yds, head on shot with a 7mm 140 gr Nosler Accubond that entered the chest taking the right side lung, damaging the spine enough at the neck-shoulder junction to drop the 8pt in his tracks. Damage to the right lung was a nickel to quarter size hole and the liver was turned to liquid jelly. Bullet did not exit.

Prior to that, I shot a small 8pt buck at 41 paces with a 30 cal Berger 168 VLD. That bullet entered behind the left side shoulder (hard quartering shot) taking out the left lung, and catching the rear tip of the right lung along with trashing the liver. I found pieces of that bullet all the way back at the rectum on that buck. Internal damage was significant, with massive amounts of blood, and 4 broken ribs at the spine area. This deer dropped at the shot.

On both of those deer, the bullet did exactly what I wanted: killed quickly, anchoring the animals on the spot at the shot.

Even though I prefer exits, what I REALLY want is the bullet to kill quickly with no tracking. )

Regards
Rog

 

[rick523]

First choice is a bullet heavy for caliber that will give me a DRT 99.99% of the time, as long as I do my part.

Second choice if I can't get a DRT I want said animal to run to truck jump in back and drt. (maybe I should make this my first choice)

Bergers babygun)

 

[Scot E]

If I had to choose it would be your 2nd option, no offside hole but complete internal damage.

In my experience it is the best and quickest killer.

It gives the greatest chance for a DRT kill.

It is most forgiving of POI error


I have seen deer and especially elk suck up well placed shots with controlled expansion bullets and still run a few hundred yards before expiring. I don't like tracking. It introduces the biggest factor in loosing an animal . . . . loosing the blood trail, due to darkness, inclement weather, poor tracking skills, and hard to follow terrain. Plus when you hunt in predator country you may not have much left the following morning if you have to wait overnight.

You can have close to the best of both worlds if you use grenade style bullets in heavy for caliber, high SD bullets. Many times you will get both major internal damage and a complete pass-through.

Scot E.

 

[toddc]

When I see all of the discussion related to bullets and which one to use I realize that not everyone uses a 338 with a 300gr SMK or berger. Either one of those will result in option 3 if you park the truck in the right spot. Might damage a little meat though. I worry about meat damage once its dead. Id rather have too much meat damage in the back of my truck than not enough out running around.
Everyone focuses too much on which SOOOPERBOOOLIT will kill and not enough on running a heavyweight long bullet. A 6mm,6.5mm,7mm,300 or 338 in bergers heaviest weight will get you as close to option 3 as possible. I dont trust the 257 berger as the sd isnt what I like to see in a conventional bullet but any other will work like a charm. Problem is everyone gets hung up on velocity and wants to shoot a light for caliber slug....then you get these bullet fail threads.
Ive shot a lot of different slugs at animals and the long bergers are homewreckers. Problem is that too many people ignore common sense because a bullet builder is telling them a buncha BS. A long for caliber berger(even the 115 6mm) will generally give you option 1 & 2.

 

[Mike6158]

I have a .338 Edge and only load the 300 SMK or 300gr Bergers. If the shot from this round doesn't kill then I did something wrong.

The thread was prompted by an in camp discussion that I had with a friend of mine back in the summer. The rifle I used was a 7mm Rem Mag. The bullet was a 168gr Berger VLD (hunting). I don't load them hot, I load them for accuracy so they end up in the 2800 - 2900 fps range (over a chrony, not guessing). It did it's job. There was no exit hole but the Axis deer was dead within 20 yards. A friend and experienced hunter declared that my bullet wasn't "cuttin the mustard" and that's what prompted this thread. I just couldn't follow his reasoning. I'll probably order some 180gr VLD's for the larger deer (like Axis). The 168 gr bullet is more than adequate for white-tail. They basically just die on the spot. Here in this part of TX I'm stuck taking relatively easy 100 yard and less shots so placement has never been an issue.

 

[midwesthunter]

I like a big exit for good blood trail if needed. But I hunt some thick nasty stuff. Shot two bucks with my muzzloader this year, one at 50 yards, bullet hit and smashed both shoulders, but it never exited, recovered a flat lead mass the size of a a 50 cent piece by skin on opposite shoulder. Insides were jello. Both front legs were useless *** he made it 40 yards by jumping off his back legs, but there was zero blood. Now this last weekend, MI buck at 268 yards, perfect heart shot with a pass through, blood everywhere, but didn't hit anything big in the bone department.

 

[toddc]

I have a .338 Edge and only load the 300 SMK or 300gr Bergers. If the shot from this round doesn't kill then I did something wrong.

The thread was prompted by an in camp discussion that I had with a friend of mine back in the summer. The rifle I used was a 7mm Rem Mag. The bullet was a 168gr Berger VLD (hunting). I don't load them hot, I load them for accuracy so they end up in the 2800 - 2900 fps range (over a chrony, not guessing). It did it's job. There was no exit hole but the Axis deer was dead within 20 yards. A friend and experienced hunter declared that my bullet wasn't "cuttin the mustard" and that's what prompted this thread. I just couldn't follow his reasoning. I'll probably order some 180gr VLD's for the larger deer (like Axis). The 168 gr bullet is more than adequate for white-tail. They basically just die on the spot. Here in this part of TX I'm stuck taking relatively easy 100 yard and less shots so placement has never been an issue.

Im not real big on any berger thats less than the longest for caliber made. You need all the sd you can get with a traditional style bullet. IMO the 168 isnt gonna provide the combo of option 1&2 like a 180 would.

 

[winmag]

I'm looking for a bullet that penetrates then opens aggressively at close range then the farther you step out it blows slower and at 600+ you get consistent exits that are created by multiple bullet and bone frags, not just a bullet hole!

I tend to agree, with the major exception of multiple Bullet frags. I'm not a mono metal proponent, but I won't use any bullet that has a tendancy to frag for my style of hunting. I like a clean exit if I get one, but I get about as many exits as I do entrance only on bears. Almost always exit on deer, & haven't dumped an elk with my current load for my 300WSM.


** it should be noted that "reaching out there for ME is 6-800 yds Max" if I were to "Go Long" like some respected members here I'd use a more fragnible bullet for dedicated ELR work. **

Not bashing anyone's chosen brand or hunting style etc. just sharing my preference for what has worked well for me, & my chosen style & terminal performance expectations.

 

[Mike6158]

Im not real big on any berger thats less than the longest for caliber made. You need all the sd you can get with a traditional style bullet. IMO the 168 isnt gonna provide the combo of option 1&2 like a 180 would.

I would have to agree. I'm running low on 168's... I'm going to start load developing on 180's in the near future.