So now that you have explained the importance of NODE, WHY DON'T MORE OF YOU.........

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by shortpants, Apr 11, 2011.

  1. shortpants

    shortpants Well-Known Member

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    Since finding your accuracy node is so critical when it comes to long range shooting why don't more of you spend the $11 to experiment with a Sims barrel de-resonator also called the Sharpshooter X-Ring or have you???
    If you have then what were your results?
    I started a topic a while back on this but only got 1 response and that person said he uses them on 4 out of 5 of his rifles and swore they made a noticeable difference. I bought one and plan on doing my own tests with it but in the meantime I would like to hear from those of you who have tried them already and if you haven't WHY NOT??? IT'S ONLY $11!
     
  2. load

    load Well-Known Member

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    Re: So now that you have explained the importance of NODE, WHY DON'T MORE OF YOU.....

    because the harmonics are still there. and you still need to time the barrel. that little rubber thingy may disapate the resonance quicker but it doesn't really do much by the time the bullet has left the barrel
     

  3. MTBULLET

    MTBULLET Well-Known Member

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    Re: So now that you have explained the importance of NODE, WHY DON'T MORE OF YOU.....

    yes, i use them. but not all rifles saw a benefit, I have them on 4 rifles and they do work. I guess i don't know how to time a bbl, but the vibrations are "tuned" with the simms to a very noticeable degree.
     
  4. RDM416

    RDM416 Well-Known Member

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    Re: So now that you have explained the importance of NODE, WHY DON'T MORE OF YOU.....

    I am not a LR competitive shooter, all my shooting is for fun and hunting purposes. However, I have a great deal or respect for those who compete in LR events and I think most would agree that our LR hunting sport owes a lot to the BR and highpower shooting communities. While I don't shoot competitively, I do like to wander around the line and watch and talk to guys that do. When I start seeing those guys with "barrel de-resonators" I will start to think about trying one. If they really worked, the competitive shooters would be using them. Maybe that is the lazy way out, but I think I will stick to it until some of those guys who know a lot more about this stuff than I do start hawking them.
     
  5. shortpants

    shortpants Well-Known Member

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    Re: So now that you have explained the importance of NODE, WHY DON'T MORE OF YOU.....

    I'm not saying they will replace the need of finding your accuracy node but perhaps on some rifles it could. If there is not much difference between TDC (Top Dead Center) and BDC then perhaps one of these would give you "good enough" results? This would depend on the rifle but it worked on 4 out of 5 rifles for one of our members.

    For bench rest purposes I would be surprised if many of them would replace finding their node with this product but these are guys that will do anything to get one up on the competition. So why not after you have found your node try one and see if you can increase your results? For that matter try one before finding your node and after?

    I know some of you are perfectionists and want to control everything in your power to gain accuracy. If this describes you wether you are a BR guy or a hunter I would love your opinions on this. Like I said I'm going to do my own experimenting but I'm just shocked that for $11 dollars more people have not already tried.

    I am a hunter and have no BR experience but I am a perfectionist and just love debating issues such as this for the sake of learning something new.

    Thanks for allowing me to burn up some of your brain cells!:D
     
  6. Russ Hatch

    Russ Hatch Well-Known Member

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    Re: So now that you have explained the importance of NODE, WHY DON'T MORE OF YOU.....

    The rules in short range benchrest just changed recently to allow the use of tuners on their barrels. They use mechanical tuners that can be moved a thousandth of an inch at a time. I'm not sure whether they are allowed by the long range rules or not.
     
  7. RDM416

    RDM416 Well-Known Member

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    Re: So now that you have explained the importance of NODE, WHY DON'T MORE OF YOU.....

    Maybe I am just too lazy or skeptical to try it, but either way for those of us shooting high intensity rounds it would cost a lot more than the $11......

    First one would have to consider how many shots would it take to verify?? Lets say two three shot groups at 500 yards to establish a baseline for performance. (that is pretty much a minimum, one group seldom proves anything, two is only just a little better)

    Then how about we start with the de-resonator 2" from the muzzle end of the barrel, fire two 3 shot groups. Move it 1" back and fire another pair of groups, move it back another inch and fire another pair of groups, etc..............

    Evaluate the results: Maybe we notice that 6" from the muzzle gave us two groups that averaged smaller than our baseline groups without the de-resonator. Now we need to fire another 3 to 5 sets of groups with, then without the de-resonator to see if there really is a difference........

    $11???? Now I have fired at least 100 rounds of precision loaded ammo which took hours to load, had to clean my rifle barrel at least 5 times, burned up 100 rounds of barrel life in barrel that is only good for 700. Looks like a lot more than $11 to me.:D:D

    Please understand I am having a little fun with this and only being half serious.:) But, half serious I am....... often with things like the de-resonator or different primers, different seating depth, a little more or a little less powder we can fool ourselves into thinking we have hit the magic combination based on one or two fantastic groups. The problem is, we may later figure out that all it was, was a couple of great groups, not the holy grail. I have talked to guys who swear by those things, but when I quiz them about how they tested it there was no real scientific test at all, they just got a good group and became convinced it was the de-resonator.

    Most guys who are competitive shooters or serious long range shooters keep very detailed log books. Everything is in there regarding the load, rifle, environmental conditions, etc. for every round fired from that rifle. That data is used to spot trends or as a basis for comparison. One or two 3 round groups seldom tells the whole tale.....

    Don't let my being a skeptic discourage you from trying it. Just know when you do a post on how great the thing works that the skeptics like me will want to see a detailed experiment, not one 3 shot group...... or I for one will probably remain a skeptic.:)
     
  8. shortpants

    shortpants Well-Known Member

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    Re: So now that you have explained the importance of NODE, WHY DON'T MORE OF YOU.....

    We agree on a couple of things. First I'm never more than half serious because that would be no fun at all!:D And like I said I am a perfectionist so details mean everything. I just started keeping a log and using a chrono. However, I shoot a factory rifle with factory ammo because at this time I have no way to reload. Now a bunch of you just lost interest because you think this guy can't be serious! I am very serious about learning anything I can that has anything to do with making me a better shooter! I do understand that I am limiting myself to less than perfect results with my current equipment but I have to start somewhere right. What I'm trying to do for now until I can afford the custom rifle and reloading equipment is get the absolute best results out of my factory equipment as possible with the intensions of having a back up rifle that I can pick up a few years down the road and buy ammo for it and be confident that it will perform. I have shot sub-moa groups out to 800 yds. with it so far and am constantly trying to improve.

    Back to the point I don't think you would burn up much ammo testing the De-Resinator since you are shooting anyway. Once I find the factory ammo that performs best for me I will do some long range testing and I don't think it will take hundreds of rounds to see if the De-Resinator makes a difference. I do think somebody with better equipment than me and a better shot would be able to see a difference (or not) rather quickly which is why I ask the question.

    Thanks for helping out a rookie!
     
  9. cfvickers

    cfvickers Well-Known Member

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    Re: So now that you have explained the importance of NODE, WHY DON'T MORE OF YOU.....

    I have fired some of every single brand of factory ammo I have ever seen. Literally. If you want the best accuracy out of factory ammo get Hornady. It is the most consistent reasonably priced factory ammo you can get. You don't need the pretty plastic tips to get good groups either. The standard hornady custom stuff works great. I have found a hornady factory load that will group under an inch in every bolt action I own, I have a 300 win mag that I shoot it regularly out of even though I can reload. The factory 180 interlock load regularly produces groups in the .2s even from different lots.

    As far as the deresinator goes, I have experimented with them, and they have changed the loads I get my best groups from, but I have never seen a marked improvement in accuracy only a marked increase in rounds fired trying to find it's sweet spot on the barrel.

    Hope this info helps.
     
  10. shortpants

    shortpants Well-Known Member

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    Re: So now that you have explained the importance of NODE, WHY DON'T MORE OF YOU.....

    Thanks for the reply some good info for sure. I shoot a 300wsm. and according to hornady's website they don't offer any loaded ammo for the wsm. I am going to test the 178 amax's loaded by HSM and hope that hornady starts manufacturing something for me. I have shot some of their stuff before and it is good stuff!
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2011
  11. RDM416

    RDM416 Well-Known Member

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    Re: So now that you have explained the importance of NODE, WHY DON'T MORE OF YOU.....


    I'm glad you took my having a little fun the way it was intended, I've unintentionally made some guys mad when I thought it was obvious I was trying to be funny..... maybe I should just stick with my day job and not try to be a comedian. :D

    You are doing the right thing, ask questions and try everything. Keep in mind when you ask some questions..... such as about barrel de-resonators that most of the "heavy hitters" (which I don't consider myself one of....) on this site either will not answer because they have not used or done whatever you are asking and don't intend to, or they will give a short answer..... "won't work". Few if any others will weigh in because the question has been answered.

    So, when you ask one of those questions that no one or just 1 person responds to, don't get your feeling hurt. Just realize that you have asked about something no one else thinks is effective or have ever tried. Believe me, the LR shooting community will try ANYTHING they think will help, so if the big boys are not doing it.......... go ahead and try anyway but in many cases your time, money and effort may be better directed toward something else.

    Keep in mind, this is just an opinion from a semi-rookie.:) I have been at this LR game for quite a few years but still have much to learn. There are lots of guys on this site who know much more than I do. I just enjoy trying help those who are just getting into or just getting serious about LR hunting.......... I was there too just a few years ago. One of the guys on this site has a tag line that says "I know just enough to be dangerous....... but dangerous at ever increasing distances" That is a great line that describes many of us, a work in progress.
     
  12. MTBULLET

    MTBULLET Well-Known Member

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    Re: So now that you have explained the importance of NODE, WHY DON'T MORE OF YOU.....

    WOW,
    if you burn up 100 rounds just to test one element, you must burn up a bbl every time you try a different bullet,or brass lot, or primer lot, etc.

    I foumd the sweet spot area, or discovered the simms wouldn't work, on my rifles in 1, 9 shot group. 3 with simms at muzzle, 3 in the middle, and 3 about 1-2" from stock. I've already done load development, so just looking for an improvement on that, so easy to see better group using the 9 shot method. Once I see what area the simms should be, further practice shooting involves fine tuning the simms placement. Most of my rifles like the simms near the stock, one .300RUM near the muzzle.
     
  13. zupatun

    zupatun Well-Known Member

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    Re: So now that you have explained the importance of NODE, WHY DON'T MORE OF YOU.....

    I also imagine that with a heavier barrel the Sims won't have as much effect...the frequencies generated should be higher as the mass grows with the barrel.

    The other question I have is that the node would change with bullet type/mass and powder charge as well. I'd still have to "tweak" the position on the barrel to get the resonance exact...

    Think that whippy thin sporter barrels would benefit most from this...but I have no evidence either way.

    Matt
     
  14. RDM416

    RDM416 Well-Known Member

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    Re: So now that you have explained the importance of NODE, WHY DON'T MORE OF YOU.....

    MTBULLET,

    As I said in the later post to "shortpants" I was attempting to be a little funny, but funny to illustrate a point.

    It certainly does not take me 100 rounds to evaluate any change to my load or rifle. I was being absurd to make the point that with things like the de-resonator that guys will go out and shoot 1 good group, then swear the thing is better than "sliced bread" when they really may not have proved anything.

    I'm glad they work for you, and I am certainly not saying you have not seen improvement or that they don't work. I just remain skeptical is all.......:)