Pointing your own rounds

DocUSMCRetired

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2014
Messages
770
Location
Texas
Sometimes the question comes up along the lines of "I point my own rounds, how does this affect my BC?" So I wanted to share this information with you guys. If you decide to point your own rounds this is the change in BC you can expect:

"Typically, for pointing, it's 3-4% increase in BC on average. If the nose is long and pointy/VLD shape and with a large meplat, that's where pointing has the biggest effect; up to 8% or 10%. If the meplat is tight on a short tangent nose, the increase can be as small as 1 or 2%." - Bryan Litz
 
So on a Berger 180 hybrid for instance...if the G7 BC is .345 then the pointed BC is ...?
 
What's the possibility of getting a custom drag model for the .338 Berger 300 gr OTM, that has been pointed, for use in my Applied Ballistics app? I am very happy with the current custom drag model for un-pointed 300 OTM's.

Also what pointing tool would you and Applied Ballistics recommend if one were to attempt this?

Thoughts?

Jeff
 
I have tried several and love the Whidden Gunworks die for that. He has several sleeves to match any profile bullet.

I would guess that to be what Bryan uses too. But if I go there, it will only be if he will offer a custom drag model for the 300 OTM that has been pointed. Thus the reason I would want to use the same tool and method Bryan uses.

Jeff
 
Broz wouldn't pointing prevent expansion on game? Or are you thinking just long range target use?

On the other hand, given that the Berger hybrids I have used tend to expand a little too much up close, maybe this is just the ticket to allow a few inches of penetration before opening...wouldn't that be the trick!
 
Broz wouldn't pointing prevent expansion on game? Or are you thinking just long range target use?

On the other hand, given that the Berger hybrids I have used tend to expand a little too much up close, maybe this is just the ticket to allow a few inches of penetration before opening...wouldn't that be the trick!

Not sure as I don't know how much will be removed. But I am sure it can be dealt with by drilling the new tips after. The size f the hole in the open tip is very fussy. Too much and you will get way too much expansion. I am always looking for BC and if I could get another .080 for G1 BC it should make a noticeable difference in wind drift. Eliminating wind drift is important to me as I seek the best possible placement above all else.

Jeff
 
Right ok thanks. Guess the only way for me to know is try a tipped one and see. I'd actually prefer a little less expansion from the 7 mm 180s, so maybe but would work just fine. I'm loading up some accubonds for shorter range shots so that will probably solve that problem anyway.
 
This is a complicated subject, especially when you consider trimming and pointing.

The overall answer to the question: "how much do these operations (pointing and trimming) help?" can be answered by: "It depends on how bad (large and inconsistent) the bullet tips are to begin with".

For bullets that have small and consistent meplat's out of the box, it can be a waste of time to trim and/or point.

But if you have bullets with very large and inconsistent tips, you can improve the bullets a lot with these operations. Any by 'a lot', I mean something that will be visible in 1000 yard groups, but not necessarily to those shooting steel at various ranges from improvised positions.


Now, to get into the details...

To start with, consider the fundamental differences between trimming and pointing.

Trimming is purely a uniforming operation. The trimmers index off the bullet ogive, so they always cut the tip to the same diameter. This isn't necessarily cutting the bullets to a uniform OAL. The important thing is you're getting tips which are all the same size. Done correctly (meaning you set the trimmer to trim the correct amount), trimming will uniform BC to the lowest BC bullet in the box. In other words, the bullet with the largest tip in the box is the bullet that you want the trimmer to barely touch, and all the other bullet tips will be trimmed to this size. So with trimming you're uniforming the bullets, but slightly lowering the overall average BC.

Pointing is different in the sense that the operation is indexed from the base of the bullet (the bullet is pushed into the pointing die from it's base). Because of this, and the fact that not all bullets are the same OAL (even after trimming), bullet pointing doesn't guarantee uniformity, but it does have a uniforming effect because it's taking bullet tips that may start out very different, and making them 'less different'. The main advantage of pointing is an increase in average BC.

Trimming before and/or after pointing doesn't guarantee total uniformity because the trimmer is trimming the nose to length and leaving OAL variation, and the pointing operation is based on OAL, so you'll still have some bullets pointed more than others. (the longer bullets will be pushed further into the pointing die).

If you really want the 'best' possible procedure for uniforming and increasing BC, this is what I recommend.

First, trim all bullets.

Next, sort bullets into batches of OAL which vary no more than +/- 0.001". Depending on the uniformity of the bullets, this may be 2 batches or it may be 10.

Now, with the bullets trimmed and sorted into batches of common length, set your pointing die to point the first batch. When the first batch is finished, make an adjustment to the pointing die to accommodate the length of the next batch of bullets. If you don't, you'll be pointing more or less due to the difference in bullet OAL.

I don't see a benefit in trimming again after pointing.

In fact, I think you can arrive at the 90% solution by skipping the trimming step, and just sorting bullets on OAL before pointing.

Having said all that, for my personal use in competition, I just point my bullets straight out of the box. Granted, these are Berger Bullets which tend to come 'out of the box' in pretty good shape and don't need much work. I've never trimmed bullets except for test the effect on BC.

Many times shooters get lost in the weeds of how much this or that helps. Remember the overall universal answer: it depends. One shooter may demonstrate a great benefit to trimming and pointing 'brand x' bullets that he shoots in a certain application. It's unwise (but very common) for other shooters using different bullets in a different application to jump to the conclusion that they need to do the same thing that helped that guy. When considering pros and cons, consider the details of the application before blindly following what other successful shooters are doing.

Take care,
-Bryan
 
What's the possibility of getting a custom drag model for the .338 Berger 300 gr OTM, that has been pointed, for use in my Applied Ballistics app? I am very happy with the current custom drag model for un-pointed 300 OTM's.

Also what pointing tool would you and Applied Ballistics recommend if one were to attempt this?

Thoughts?

Jeff

This is something I've considered doing; going back and re-testing many of the more popular bullets in their 'pointed' configuration and providing the BC's and custom drag models for those.

Of course one complication/question will be: what pointer did you use, and how will the BC / drag model be different for the pointer I used?

Shooting every variation of pointer is not practical, not to mention the differences in how individuals 'set' their dies.

But fortunately, I don't think any of that matters very much. Of course there will be minor differences in pointing methods/tools, but they will probably be indiscernible; certainly small in comparison to natural bullet lot variations. So the real distinction is: pointed or not pointed when it comes to BC and drag modeling.

The lab is running at full steam but there's no reason we couldn't add this to the list, especially for the more common bullets used in ELR shooting where the custom drag models are used.

For BC modeling, it's pretty easy to increase the BC input by a certain % depending on how much you're pointing. But there's currently no way to modify a custom drag model to account for pointing.

BTW, I use the Whidden die. John contracted me to design the tipping inserts and I remember doing a lot of research as to how closely the shape had to match the tip of the bullet. I found there was a small benefit to be had by getting the shape to match perfectly, but not much. The current design with 3 tip angles to choose from covering all bullets leaves little-to-no room for improvement in terms of drag reduction. Other bullet pointers which offer custom ground tipping inserts for specific bullets may produce a more visually appealing transition, but the difference in terms of drag is insignificant. The main difference is 'pointed or not pointed', and there you're only looking at an average of 5% increase. To go beyond this and ask: 'what is the shape of the pointer', now you're down in the weeds of less than 1%.

-Bryan
 
Trimming is purely a uniforming operation. The trimmers index off the bullet ogive, so they always cut the tip to the same diameter. This isn't necessarily cutting the bullets to a uniform OAL.
-Bryan

Bryan,
Thanks for this outstanding explanation. Just one point, I use the Whidden Meplat Trimmer and unless I'm using it the wrong way, it does index off the bullet base. I use it in a Wilson Case Trimmer. The bullet holder merely holds the bullet perpendicular to the cutter face. The depth of cut is controlled by the micrometer that pushes the base of the bullet into the cutter. As I understand the operation, the Whidden system does give you uniform OAL from bullet to bullet.
Thanks,
Bill
 
Bryan,
Thanks for this outstanding explanation. Just one point, I use the Whidden Meplat Trimmer and unless I'm using it the wrong way, it does index off the bullet base. I use it in a Wilson Case Trimmer. The bullet holder merely holds the bullet perpendicular to the cutter face. The depth of cut is controlled by the micrometer that pushes the base of the bullet into the cutter. As I understand the operation, the Whidden system does give you uniform OAL from bullet to bullet.
Thanks,
Bill

Bill,
Thank you for clarifying this. I'm not familiar with this trimming system, and my comments were based on those trimmers like the Sinclair, Hoover, and Gerard which do index off the ogive.

-Bryan
 
While indexing off the ogives, trimming uniforms nose LENGTH -not meplat diameters. While indexing off bases(which makes no sense), trimming would uniform OAL, again -not meplat diamters.
The only time trimmed nose lengths correlate with uniform meplat diameters is when ogive radius(your datum reference) is matched.
I can't imagine many matches of anything while working from bullet bases.

Also, It makes no sense to trim all bullet noses to the shortest in a box.
To trim properly, and off a nose datum, ogive radius is first qualified with a taper mic or similar Bob green Comparator(BGC). This should set up for best pointing results, given that best pointing is accomplished with ogive desired inserts.
 
Warning! This thread is more than 10 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.
Top