Not equipment related methods to improve groups

[dfanonymous]

Most of the elk,deer,bear and wolves I hunt are not in support of an assault team I understand you enjoy that training and style of engagement but for long range hunting, I'm not exactly sure how that pertains. Military schools are not the end all be all, which I'm sure you agree. Ask me how I know

What is funny about aiming for the kill zone on an animal?
25x and under is probably most people on this forum. 10x is a big difference and it is true that more magnification leads to better accuracy. Agreed?

The fact that it's implied that you aim for vitals. No one is reinventing the wheel here.
No it's not true. So NOT agreed. specifically for the reasons I listed above as to not repeat myself.

Most of the elk,deer,bear and wolves I hunt are not in support of an assault team I understand you enjoy that training and style of engagement but for long range hunting, I'm not exactly sure how that pertains. Military schools are not the end all be all, which I'm sure you agree. Ask me how I know

I'm not trying to sell you the training, it's there and it works. A lead on a target is a lead on a target period. I do agree that they are end all be all, but when did experience stop counting for something?
field conditions and talking life there is a complete correlation in that aspect. Same as effectiveness to be able to do so. Based on this conversation I almost don't care what you think you know. I could already tell you were booty tickled by the mere fact I mentioned bench rest guys are always going to want more magnification. You're type are the only ones who argue this.

 

[mwkelso]

Sorry, couldn't help it. Not a big deal if people misuse words. It's a mute point.

game: find the misused/misspelled word

Moot, found it!

OP: I was asking a very similar question to yours not long ago, maybe a month or so. The trouble I was having was tight groups at 100, but things would start falling apart beyond 200. About 3-4moa falling apart. Part of the issue was shooting factory ammunition, but the other main part was on me. A lot of the above advice is sage and worth the time to learn. Most importantly though, learn and stick to what works for you.
I've made it a practice/habit to dry fire 3x before each round going down range. Some say it's wasted time, I say that it settles nerves and gives me 4x the amount of trigger pulls than just shooting alone. I know when my trigger will break, I know where I am in my breathing cycle, I know how my reticle moves with my heart, and I know where every point of pressure is on my rifle when I'm about to let a shot fly. Without the dry fire pulls, I would be too focused on recoil and controlling breathing to have any knowledge of the others.

Just my personal experience, best of luck to you in the quest for better accuracy. It's a great feeling when you have a system down that works for you every single time.

 

[Mram10us]

There is a reason the guys shooting the smallest groups in the world use high magnification. Proven experience. That is probably why br guys argue it.
We agree that experience counts for something. No argument.
Do what you want, but it is wrong to make statements like magnification doesn't matter with accuracy when it does.

 

[dfanonymous]

There is a reason the guys shooting the smallest groups in the world use high magnification. Proven experience. That is probably why br guys argue it.
We agree that experience counts for something. No argument.
Do what you want, but it is wrong to make statements like magnification doesn't matter with accuracy when it does.

Remember that I said that there was field conditions vs bench rest? You're arguing apples and oranges. This is like me coming after because you keep using accuracy incorrectly when you really mean precision. The thing about it is your not shooting groups at an animal. Even a follow up shot, it's going to move, good luck finding it at x billion power. As I said before, I don't get spotting shots in anything I do, as you do in bench. Having good data is first most important in this, reducing mirage and tracking/anticipating movement when a flight time is in the seconds is first and for most more important in hit probability, and tracing my shot is important in verification.

Not shoot, see what happens, adjust, then shoot for groups. Two different things. It's a proven experience that the BR crowd is comfortable with, not the best way to make a first round hit at distance, in the prone on a mountainside in 90 degree weather on a target feeding down in a basin at actual long range. This is the same reason I wouldn't listen to a BR guy give me advise on wind, because I have more experience than he does in this, outside of the flat range on his comfortable bag set up.

 

[Mram10us]

Remember that I said that there was field conditions vs bench rest? You're arguing apples and oranges. This is like me coming after because you keep using accuracy incorrectly when you really mean precision. The thing about it is your not shooting groups at an animal. Even a follow up shot, it's going to move, good luck finding it at x billion power. As I said before, I don't get spotting shots in anything I do, as you do in bench. Having good data is first most important in this, reducing mirage and tracking/anticipating movement when a flight time is in the seconds is first and for most more important in hit probability, and tracing my shot is important in verification.

Not shoot, see what happens, adjust, then shoot for groups. Two different things. It's a proven experience that the BR crowd is comfortable with, not the best way to make a first round hit at distance, in the prone on a mountainside in 90 degree weather on a target feeding down in a basin at actual long range. This is the same reason I wouldn't listen to a BR guy give me advise on wind, because I have more experience than he does in this, outside of the flat range on his comfortable bag set up.

Not a br guy just a lifetime hunter and lr shooter. I use a bench for load development but after that, the rifles only see bipods. All on this site are after first shot hits, not groups.
As for scope power, it does help and using extremes like "billion power" is disingenuous. BR shooters are different than lr hunters, but there is a lot to be learned from them with the commonalities. You hunting area sounds like where I go

 

[flylo]

A newer shooter asked a legit question & look at how we act. I'm ashamed & embarrassed & so should many of you.

 

[dfanonymous]

Not a br guy just a lifetime hunter and lr shooter. I use a bench for load development but after that, the rifles only see bipods. All on this site are after first shot hits, not groups.
As for scope power, it does help and using extremes like "billion power" is disingenuous. BR shooters are different than lr hunters, but there is a lot to be learned from them with the commonalities. You hunting area sounds like where I go

I'm not new to this site, I'm aware of the trends that people have. I've dabbled in Palma in California and bench in raton. I've had this debate before too with a guy that doesn't appear to be on here anymore.

I will agree with you on this, that there is nothing wrong with cross training in different disciplines, and that magnification IS disingenuous, which is simply why I never gave or will give any rules of thumb as to how much to use per distance. Just not to tunnel into it. I hunt exclusively west, usually in the high sierras, in both Nevada and eastern cali side, and in usually get tags sometimes in Arizona, Utah otc, New Mexico and Wyoming. I've stopped hunting Colorado because it was a little to crowded for my taste.

 

[dfanonymous]

A newer shooter asked a legit question & look at how we act. I'm ashamed & embarrassed & so should many of you.

I think that me and mram10us conversation was productive and people can draw their own conclusions, in conflicting opinions. We debated techniques appropriate to the discussion. We did so as adults as well, and without name calling.

I don't see what there is to be ashamed of.

 

[Mram10us]

A newer shooter asked a legit question & look at how we act. I'm ashamed & embarrassed & so should many of you.

It is really hard on the forums to read a guys emotions. I am guessing dfan and I are not as heated in our debate as it may seem. I can tell you my resting heart rate was exactly that
It's good to debate to find the strengths and weaknesses of each technique (neck sizing v fl sizing). I think we all learn from it.
OP, if you are getting nothing from our back and forth, we can happily take it to another thread or pms.

 

[flylo]

I'm fine if you guys are, just not used to people being rude & making fun of others.

 

[Mram10us]

I'm fine if you guys are, just not used to people being rude & making fun of others.

I apologize if I did, I'll re read what I posted but didn't think I was rude. Can't promise my sarcastic side didn't creep in there
With the anti gun movement, I consider everyone on here a brother in arms. We don't agree on methods at times, but we darn sure stand together protecting our rights. Most have the military bond, which tends to be a little tougher around the edges in a debate setting, but make no mistake, I would to go shooting with dfan or most anyone else here.

 

[sturner]

If that was bad I would hate for y'all to hear how me and my life long friends talk to each other
People that don't know us can't believe we been friends for 40 years

 

[Mram10us]

If that was bad I would hate for y'all to hear how me and my life long friends talk to each other
People that don't know us can't believe we been friends for 40 years

Our Christmas parties consist of normal folks and some operators (current and former) from a past life. Our voices are level 10, a shoulder shove is almost always involved and eye rolls are a must. We love every minute of it

 

[59FLH]

What methods and practices do you use to improve groups? I am speaking of non equipment related methods to close groups. (Mental,physical,etc) ?

I go behind the barn with a bud and we shoot a dueling tree, standing, off hand, at 75yds or more with 22lr rifles. It has made me a better shot in all discaplins, especially in the field. It helps me understand exactly what the target is supposed to look like at the moment of trigger pull....... er...squeeze