Newbie Reloading ????'s

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by shooters, Jan 20, 2010.

  1. shooters

    shooters Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    192
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2007
    Ok guys... laugh if you must, but I know very little about reloading and have some simple questions. I just spend $1600 for all the good loading equipment and have all the books.. well 3 of them. There are still questions I have unanswered so I'm calling on the experts.
    I've had 2 300 RUM's in the past. Kirby loaded rounds for them a few years ago. About 100 to be exact. Now that I have my own loading equipment, I'm ready to start. The last 2 RUMs were Winchester's. Now I've just purchased another RUM in the Sendero 2. Heres the questions.

    I can load ammo no problem. Understand max and minimum loads. I still have the load data that Kirby had written on the boxes. This.

    200gr Accubond
    95.0 grains Retumbo
    Fed. 215M Primers
    Rem Case
    2.840 Case Length
    3.592 O.A Length

    These are near max loads..... they shoot great. I am pretty sure they were never even tested in the gun before loading up that many rounds. But I guess he's just that good.

    With this new Rem Sendero ll, where do I start? Do I just load these same exact rounds for this gun and go shoot?

    How big of a difference is there in the REM and Win recievers?

    Do I start at the lowest (book) loads and work my way to max and shoot to find the most accurate?

    Do you always do a full resize?

    My biggest concern is how far do I seat these bullets? I know its in the book, but I hear all of this info on how you want the bullet to sit .10 off the lands. How do I find where .10 is? When I find a load that shoots great..... well great. But if I want to refine it a little with bullet depth, then doesn't that start messing with pressure's? Now I have to start all over? How do I go about refining a load? Sorry for all the amature ????'s, but help would be appreciated.... also so I don't blow the gun up.

    Thanks
    Jason
     
  2. Aldon

    Aldon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    718
    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    You say you have 3 books....

    Did you by chance pick up Zedikers?

    It will be most helpful. Here is a link Zediker Publishing

    Everything you ask is available online and most on this board. Do some searches.

    I determine length the cheap way, I take a once fired brass, neck size it, cut a slot in the neck and place a bullet in the case leaving it long, chamber it and gently lock the bolt and remove being careful not to smack it around, mic it and you have your distance to the lands.....back off appropriately.

    That is where the micrometer seating dies come in handy.
     

  3. Moman

    Moman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    827
    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2008
    More than likely you'll end up loading your maximum case length to the length of your magazine. I have that same gun and with 200 gr AB's loaded to max mag length, they still jump .126: It's still a good idea to check and I would recommend you pick up an OAL tool. I use and like the Hornady LNL. The Zediker book is a great idea, also read through the books you have for the basics.

    You should do work up loads in this gun. Kirby most likely custom tailored those to the gun you had and this new one could be a whole different ball game. Start at a comfortable level below max and work up. Read and understand how to check for signs of pressure so you don't go too far. I don't start at the very minimum load, but atleast a few grains below max and do my workups. I don't fullsize, but I use a FL die and partial size, only bumping the shoulder back about .001-.002.

    This is at least a partial reply to your questions to get you going, others will add more. Good luck.
     
  4. 300R

    300R Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    363
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Hornady lnl gauge is very good for measuring oal,in my sendero rum i found no accuracy difference in neck or full length sizing so try both and see what works for you,the 210gr berger worked very well for me with reloder 25.Everything about reloading your own ammo is trial and error,which makes the final results so rewarding when you find that special load.Good luck.
     
  5. shooters

    shooters Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    192
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2007
    Thanks guys. I've got all the equipment, just needed to understand a few more things. Thanks for the help. If I do the "cut a slit in the brass, lightly seat a bullet" method, the bullet will be setting right on the lands, correct? From there, do I load a few rounds, say 4, .10 off lands, the another 4, .12 off lands, then another four a .02 off from the last untill my groups settle down or start to open back up? Is that the general method? In bullet/case depth, does this start to effect pressures to where not only will I be dealing with finding the correct OAL, but now it will be effecting pressures so I'll have to start playing with powder measurements? Thanks again

    Jason
     
  6. 300R

    300R Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    363
    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    With the slit in the brass routine you can sometimes push the bullets into the lands 20 thou without knowing,a gauge is the best method or just start out with published overall lengths if it wont shoot(im sure it will) at that length try your next loads seated .5thou longer and so on,keep going carefully watching for pressure signs.
     
  7. RockyMtnMT

    RockyMtnMT Official LRH Sponsor

    Messages:
    3,034
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    The ultra mag has free bore. You will not be able to get to the lands. Use the oal that Kirby used. Back off Kirby's load 10% and work your way up. In big cartridges like the rum I work up in 1g increments. Some guys will load 3 or more at each charge weight and shoot for group. I load one at each charge and shoot all at the same target over the chrono watching each one carefully for pressure signs, and the desired velocity. Mean while watching the target to see if there is a grouping with in the load increments. Once I reach the desired velocity or pressure occurs I stop. In the case of pressure, back off a couple grains. Take this info and load several for a group. If it groups well your done. If not tweak the seating depth to improve the group.

    Hope that was not confusing.

    Steve

    PS I know you are close to Kirby, I'm sure he will tell you his methods.
     
  8. shooters

    shooters Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    192
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2007
    Thanks guys. Really appreciate all the help.

    ....if I were to use the same loads that I already have, and just started playing with bullet seating, besides changing POI, will pressures start changing as well? Can I not just use the loads I have now, but just start tweaking the bullet depth to where the Rem likes it, or does changing seating start to change pressure's significantly? Sorry for all the questions. I don't completely understand when to use less/more powder or when you need to seat more/less after you have shot a few rounds. I know what to look for with pressure signs, but I honestly couldn't tell.... say if I had a huge group, if it was because of bullet seat or power charge... or both. Guess I'll just have to do what everyone else does.... shoot shoot shoot. Thanks

    Jason
     
  9. 41mag

    41mag Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    752
    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2005
    I will try to answer your questions as best I can, to keep you safe, and get your loads shooting properly for your rifle.

    First and foremost, each rifle is a different creature from the next, it don't matter if they both came down the line one after the other. One will show pressures and preferences different from the other. This said, the load Kirby did for you were, knowing Kirby, tweaked to the particular rifle, he loaded them for. Just the particular way he is. Whether it was a seating depth, powder choice, or powder amount, he simply did not dump powder and seat bullets and call it good.

    So that said, let's start from scratch and get your load to work for your new rifle.

    First if this will be used as a repeater where your next rounds come from the magazine, this will determine your maximum OAL no matter what. I generally try to keep my rounds around .050" short of this measurement to ensure reliable feeding as some bullets will catch on the front lip of the magazine and lock up the action if they are right on the edge of fitting in the magazine. So once you determine what this length is for this rifle, you need to choose a powder that will give you a bit of flexibility above or below your desired end velocity. With the RUM this is usually with a 180 - 210 gr bullet found somewhere on a powder chart between 7828,and Retumbo. Now the charts are simply a guide as lots change from one to the next and can easily overlap from one powder to the next, in actual burn rate. With loading the RUM one thing your going to notice real quick is how fast you go through a one pound can of powder at the loads generally used. It's nice to use them to find a desired load, but when you settle on a particular powder, I highly suggest you get an eight pound jug. When you do, IF you lucky enough that they both came from the same LOT number you set, if not simply back off a grain or two and work back up till you hit your velocity or accuracy which ever comes first.

    Once you decide on the powder you want to use, and your bullet your going to start with the START loads as every manual recommends. As noted with most of these powders you can creep up a grain at a time before hitting any big pressure jumps. There are several methods on how to optimize your work up to hit a load quickly, and you can use which ever you feel is best for you. Once I decide on which powder I want, and what bullet I want, I simply load up three rounds at a time moving up the powder weights as I go. This way I am only changing one thing at a time, and it reduces the variables, and a lot of head scratching.

    As an example here is a work up I did for a Sako chambered in .243. I used the bullet I wanted to use and will continue to use, the brass was all new for each load, after setting the OAL to fit and function from the magazine, nothing was changed but the powder charge.
    [​IMG]

    Using my Chrony I worked up until I hit the velocity which was equivalent to the factory load I used for comparison, and already knew shot extremely well. Once there with the load I simply adjusted the OAL a bit and got the rifle to shoot 3 shot groups well within 1/2" at 100yds. Knowing the stock needed a touch up to begin with I left things along until I can get it done. At that point I should have an excellent load for this particular rifle. I would not however, simply shoot this same load in a Winchester I also have, as it was not worked up for that rifle, and being different it could have a lasting effect on my personal well being.

    If you have, or have access to a chronograph that will aid in hitting the velocity range your looking for. It might also show you a jump in pressure by the differences in velocity from one load to the next. If you get to high pressure with one powder before you get where you looking to be, switch to the next slower and start over. This is why I recommend a powder that has an overlap of the velocity your looking to hit, as it will generally be more accurate overall, and in more varied conditions your likely to encounter in the field, than one where you hit your desired velocity right on the edge of high pressure.

    Once you hit the desired velocity, or if you see noted accuracy with one particular weight, you can either stop and use that load or then start playing with your seating depth. When I talk about noted accuracy, when you shooting your groups and they might all be hitting in a 1.5" group or less, then you add just a bit more powder, and it drops to half of that, you in the zone for that combination. However as was the case with my friends RUM, most anything he shot was great at 100yds, but at 300 half were spreading out. So it pays to recheck things.

    If you have promising loads, and a chronograph, look for the ones with the lowest deviation. These will be the ones that you might want to consider playing with the seating depth even if they show a wider spread at further ranges. Just a .005" or so change can drop their group size easily in half. Don't be concerned with loading to the lands, my buds loads use Berger 185gr bullets, and are over .125" off and they shoot bug holes at 300yds.

    Granted you might pick a powder, pick a seating depth, and toss it all together and get a shootable load, but to optimize the accuracy from your rifle you will need to experiment. As for the seating depth changing pressures, yes it will to a degree. However your generally much better off going in than going out and into the lands. When you choose a powder that isn't at the upper end of the pressure fo your load, you will hardly ever run into any issue with seating back in the case to a degree, depending on the bullet length. I generally look for powders which when the bullet is seated to depth, will come up and just kiss the bottom of the base, or only be slightly compressed. These are generally the ones that are on the middle to slower side of the burn rate scale for that particular cartridge, and usually give the best overall results.

    I hope this helps you in some form or fashion. Working up loads can be a lot of trial and error, or you can cut the parameters down to help speed up the process of elimination. The bottom line is, that while some loads MIGHT BE, completely safe from one rifle to the next, you should NEVER simply throw them in a different firearm from the one they were developed for, and HOPE for the best. Like I read in another post somewhere, there simply isn't time to change your mind, and move out of the way once you pull the trigger, and the results can be pretty bad. Just consider, your looking at between 85 and 95 grains of powder, developing pressures of up to 65,000 PSI, only two to three inches from your face and hands.

    Reloading is safe and exciting as long as you stick to the rules and precautions. When you venture outside these parameters however, your taking things into your own hands, sometimes literally.

    Good luck and don't hesitate to ask first, there are no dumb questions, and everyone here started out learning at one time or another.
     
  10. shooters

    shooters Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    192
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2007
    Very helpful post. I appreciate the amount of time you put into explaining as well. You have left me with no unasnwered questions after that. The "where to start" as far as OAL and charge is where I was completly lost. Not anymore. After I get the gun back with the break/trigger, I will finish the break in and begin the load process. Pretty excited about it now. I think I'll stick with the Retumbo/200g AB first and see how that goes. I just picked up 2 boxes of the Nosler Custom brass. Hope it is as good as they say. Once again, thanks. Now I atleast have a good idea on where to start!



    Jason