Measuring to the lands

bob4

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Nov 10, 2012
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549
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Naples Fl.
I was measuring a new to me quality bullet for my .270. I came up with a spread of .009 difference.
Using RCBS calipers and Hornady comparator . I measured 5 separate bullets and measured each of them 5 times over. The largest spread with any 1 bullet was .005. Does this all seem reasonable/acceptable or within your allowances? I know thumb pressure has a bunch to do with the calipers. As does pressure when moving the bullet into the lands.
Just curious as to what everyone else deems acceptable measurements.
 
Welcome to sorting trays. First, when sorting base to ogive ( I am assuming that's what you're doing) with calipers and one comparator, it is difficult to get everything in line in a consistant manner. I used to try this method and it is frustrating. I went to a sorting stand w/ digital indicator, so you can zero it. This way you will be able to get very consistant measurements with one comparator and a flat tip on your indicator for base to ogive length. For bearing surface length, simply add another comparator that fits the stem on your indicator dial. Even with Bergers and Amax, I usually end up w/ 3-4 trays, so I bag 'em and tag 'em and shoot from one lot to the next. I use David Tubb's comparators w/ Larry Willis stand & Sinclair has a good set-up. It's much faster and certainly more accurate, but you still have to develop consistent methods of seating each bullet. In the meantime, you could seat a bullet in your present comparator---boattail first--- and make a mark on caliper blade where meplat touches blade. This gives you a reference point to center boattail on when taking measurements. Pressure of your thumb should be firm, but consistent. I sort by .001" and usually I can only get this with a stand type set-up. Hope this helps.
 
How many shots to get a target spread of .005" and at what distance That sounds pretty good to me.

If you are using the comparator to measure bullets you will frequently find some differences, especially with mass produced pills. Take 5 measurements and average them; should get you close.
 
Thanks everyone.
How many shots to get a target spread of .005" and at what distance That sounds pretty good to me.
.
Maybe my use of the term spread wasn't a good choice. I haven't shot any, haven't built one for that matter. I'm measuring VLD's to decide at what length they touch the lands so I can't start by backing off .010, then going with Bergers method of finding a good jump first.
My question I meant to ask was, do others when measuring to the lands find they also get .009 difference or are my measurements a bit extreme ? I did measure each bullet individually and only got a difference of .001
 
I was measuring a new to me quality bullet for my .270. I came up with a spread of .009 difference.
Using RCBS calipers and Hornady comparator . I measured 5 separate bullets and measured each of them 5 times over. The largest spread with any 1 bullet was .005. Does this all seem reasonable/acceptable or within your allowances? I know thumb pressure has a bunch to do with the calipers. As does pressure when moving the bullet into the lands.
Just curious as to what everyone else deems acceptable measurements.

Bob4, Sorry I misunderstood your original question. Thought you were sorting bullets. Seems like you are asking about determining CBTO to lands and setting up jump w/ Hornady OAL gauge. Right? If so, pick one bullet to use of each type and weight, save and record data for each bullet (same deal for different rifles or barrels). I usually go a bit firmly into lands to establish a "slight jam" reference depth and record it. Then I will seat the same bullet lightly touching about 10-12 times and record. I then throw out 2 from long & 2 from short, then take an average of the remaining lengths. This always puts me pretty close. Once again, consistent method will give the best results. Sounds like @ .005" variance, you're doing well. Save the exact bullet, use exact same comparator and calipers to use to gauge at a later date (checking neck erosion, etc.)
 
Thanks everyone. Maybe my use of the term spread wasn't a good choice. I haven't shot any, haven't built one for that matter. I'm measuring VLD's to decide at what length they touch the lands so I can't start by backing off .010, then going with Bergers method of finding a good jump first.
My question I meant to ask was, do others when measuring to the lands find they also get .009 difference or are my measurements a bit extreme ? I did measure each bullet individually and only got a difference of .001
bob4,
Pick a bullet out of the box. Measure it from base to ogive and note it in your reloading log book where you will be entering the rest of your test data and make your "dummy" round to the lands with it. Are you using an OAL (overall length) tool like the SINCLAIR or HORNADY?
 
bob4,
Pick a bullet out of the box. Measure it from base to ogive and note it in your reloading log book where you will be entering the rest of your test data and make your "dummy" round to the lands with it. Are you using an OAL (overall length) tool like the SINCLAIR or HORNADY?

Well when you say measuring to the lands I think stoney point overall length gauge.

Then we talk about bullet sorting. I really don't think the bearing length will affect the chamber overall length measurement.

If you are bullet sorting for bearing length measuring boat tails from base to olgive really doesn't give you the real answer. You need to measure both ends with a gauge like the tubbs or this one.

accuracy one bullet comparator

Bullet Tipping - Accuracy One Shooting Supplies
 
When a .270's fired, the bullet jump distance to the rifling's controlled by the distance from the case shoulder to the bullet's contact diameter on its ogive somewhere between a diameter of .277" down to .270". The case head is not against the bolt face but a few to several thousandths away from it. There's a few thousandths spread in case headspace; distance from case head to shoulder that's easily measured. Depending on the chamber's actual headspace, there could be several thousandths slop between the case and chamber lengthwise. Therefore, measuring a loaded round's bullet rifling contact diameter to the case head is a waste of time ; at least in my opinion.

Several thousandths spread in bullet jump to the rifling is not a big concern anyway. It'll increase .001" for every few dozen shots fired anyway using the same bullet seating depth or cartridge overall length. Barrel steel erodes away from high pressure hot gases when fired. Match grade AR10, M1 and M14 rifles shooting the same lot off match ammo over 3000 to 4000 rounds of super accurate barrel life have their last bullets jump near 1/10th inch further to the lands than when the barrel was new. Same with bolt action rifles shooting ammo loaded from their box magazines with cartridge OAL the same across their barrel life.

If you can shoot your stuff into no worse than 1/10th MOA at 100 yards, you may see a 1/20 MOA loss of accuracy as the rifling erodes 1/10th inch further down the barrel increasing bullet jump that much. You could seat bullets .001" shallower in the cases every few dozen rounds to compensate for it..
 
I'm gonna echo what a nationally placed shooter said at my local F-class. The berger hybrids are very forgiving relative to seating depth, more importantly is the bullet length.
 
I don't think bullet length has much to do with accuracy. Having shot and seen others shoot 155's through 220's in a .308 Win. 1:11 twist barrel with equal accuracy for all practical purposes. As long as their muzzle velocity is good to spin them the right rpm for their weight and length, they'll fly with consistent trajectories all the way to the target. Naturally, as long as they stay supersonic.
 
I don't think bullet length has much to do with accuracy. Having shot and seen others shoot 155's through 220's in a .308 Win. 1:11 twist barrel with equal accuracy for all practical purposes. As long as their muzzle velocity is good to spin them the right rpm for their weight and length, they'll fly with consistent trajectories all the way to the target. Naturally, as long as they stay supersonic.

So you're saying that guys are grouping 155's w/ 220's? I think you're missing my point.
 
Does this all seem reasonable/acceptable or within your allowances?

Yes, you are good.

Most people that say they seat their bullets .005 off the lands (for example), are only taking an educated guess like yourself. Usually by averaging 5-10 sample measurements.

If you're a couple thousandths off on your measurements, it's not a huge deal. Your accuracy window for bullet seating depths are .030-.040 wide.

If you haven't read it yet, read this: http://www.longrangehunting.com/for...accuracy-berger-vld-bullets-your-rifle-40204/
(It doesn't matter if you are not shooting Berger bullets, it still applies).

Just remember what your end goal is. Is it to know your true COAL down to the .001 of an inch? I would assume not. Your goal is mostly likely the same as mine, to reload more accurate ammo for a specific rifle.

Take a look at that link I posted. It's probably one of the best stickies on this entire forum. Hope this helps.
 
That link (Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy .....) echos what lots of folks do. But it has one huge flaw and one medium flaw.

Anyone who thinks one or two 3-shot groups will represent the real accuracy level of any load needs to bone up on ballistic statistics. A single 3-shot group has about a 1 in 15 (or worse) chance of showing the area all fired shots will land in. Two of them superimposed to represent a 6-shot group has about a 1 in 10 change of representing real accuracy. This is for the rifle being shot in free recoil. Strings of 5-shot groups fired at short ranges in 100-yd. benchrest matches from the same rifle range from a few hundredths to one-third inch or more to hold aggregate records. And their shot in no particular order of group size.

If a human holds the rifle against their shoulder, the odds get worse. However, if you can shoot ten 3-shot groups that are within 10% of the same size, then shooting one will suffice.

Keeping cartridge OAL to a .001" spread means nothing. Bullet tip distance from the rifling contact point on its ogive will vary a lot more than that. And if all the bottleneck cases have a spread of case headspace, the bullet contact point distance from the rifling will also have at least that much spread in distance.
 
The Hornady/Stoneypoint method is very coarse, and you can see with a little research everyone is 'averaging' to pick their numbers. It's flaw is taking datum from both shoulders AND noses.
You already have one variance in bullet nose(for either COAL, or CBTO). Adding shoulder variance separates you that much more from valid measure.

Also, the generalizations about inevitable variances in reloading/shooting -in practice, are also unhelpful or flat out wrong. I assure you it is very possible to set exact CBTO for every single round. I've done it for decades.

There are 2 things to consider in CBTO, as it is nose datum to cartridge base. The nose datum is a variable, but not as bad as imagined out there.
Begin with a soild method for COAL(to a bullet tip); WOODS describes the R-P tool here, which is the cleaning rod method:
Reloader's Nest Forum - OAL
This give you cartridge base to a bullet tip.
Then you take something as simple as it gets to convert that COAL to CBTO:
http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloadi...r-hex-style-bullet-comparators-prod34262.aspx


From here you have CBTO with that particular bullet. Now you can compare that bullet with others in the batch to gauge it as a standard, or not. Of course you might have done this before measuring CBTO.
The only valid way to do this is with a Bob Green Comparator(BGC):
Bob Green New Products
This takes comparative measure of ogive radius from bullet to bullet. While they match your measuring datums hold as same.
If you want your CBTO right on the money, for every round loaded, AND you're using cheap factory bullets, you might as well invest in a BGC. Oh, forget bearing surface comparators, they will not help at all here, because they are including too many OTHER variables.

What if your bullets are better stock, and you're sure bullet noses vary in ogive radius only a small amount? Will it affect CBTO much with a small mismatch? The answer depends on the ogive type, tangent or secant or hybrid. But for the most part and really good bullets your CBTO will only shift up to ~1thou. The reason is that seating plugs take datum on the nose, and luckily this compensates seating well to keep CBTO the same.
A blunter nose leads to higher comparator datum, AND higher seating plug datum, so the bullet will not be seated as deep, and then your CBTO comparator reads close to the same even while higher on the nose. Well, this represents land contact relationship, so it's right as long as measured CBTO is right.

Now imagine adding shoulder datum variances, and I'm sure you'll see this is one too many variables. Stay away from that. Just use simple(actual/known) CBTO that's proven shooting best.
 
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