Loading Range Brass and expecting Precision

[redneckdan]

I use carefully sorted range brass. Working on a load for 115 DTAC in 6 creed using reformed 243 win brass and staball 6.5 Settled on 43.1 grains for the high node and working on tweaking seating for accuracy. Initial testing to find node was .030 off the lands. 10 rds of 43.1gr measures ES 13 fps and SD of 5.9 fps. If you are in a good node, small variances in capacity shouldnt have a dramatic effect on velocity.

 

[SteelBanger]

Yes ,I agree, On some occasions you do benefit .
And I use Lake City brass in my '06 Enfield for the reason you state , (it, the Enfield, has a large chamber and that is what I have used always in it). I still anneal it.
My good, good friend and hunting buddy gave me some Winchester 338 mag brass. I appreciated it, 'cept the necks were too short , ( means it's been fired more than once).
A man I didn't know gave me two boxes of 7mm Wby Mag brass ( in Wby boxes), Again, necks too short, ( been fired more than once).
Everybody has experiences that affect their opinions.

Going to show my ignorance again, but why does the neck being a little short make it not once fired? I just ran through 100 Federal .223 cases I got from a friend when we got done shooting (they were brand new in the box cartridges) and when I went through my trimming process (trim to 1.75) 4 of them didn't reach the cutter head and when I measured them they were right around 1.742. I just chalked that up as an illustration to how inconsistent cheap brass is ... it's also one of the observations that inspired this thread.

 

[SteelBanger]

I don't reload to save money and would view all of the sorting and prep work for range brass as a waste of my time.

For the 223 buy what ever will work but remember this, premium brass takes less prep work and will typically last longer.

Here's a good article regarding brass and long range shooting.

All about that Brass

Yep, this is a rant.......sorta. Only because it seems like we find it being the most common culprit right behind optics failure when trying to diagnose accuracy issues. I don't think a lot of folks realize just how important good brass is in the overall accuracy equation. It's every bit as...

aprifles.com

I kinda sorta reload to "save money," at this point all my equipment is a sunk cost so when I can load say a 73 ELD-M cartridge for .40 cents a pop compared to buying the same cartridges at over $1 a pop I can save decent money ... or in reality it means I can shoot a lot more. I also don't mind the sorting and prep work, it's all part of the process and fun for me and gives me an excuse to step away from the craziness of life and sit down at the bench all to myself for a little while.

Really enjoyed that brass article you linked though, and confirmed my suspicion that it's the volume inconsistencies that are likely leading to my sub-par SD / ES numbers. I really don't like the idea of sorting by volume but I may give it a try in a small batch just to see what kind of results I can get.

 

[jdyoung]

Going to show my ignorance again, but why does the neck being a little short make it not once fired? I just ran through 100 Federal .223 cases I got from a friend when we got done shooting (they were brand new in the box cartridges) and when I went through my trimming process (trim to 1.75) 4 of them didn't reach the cutter head and when I measured them they were right around 1.742. I just chalked that up as an illustration to how inconsistent cheap brass is ... it's also one of the observations that inspired this thread.

I too have had batches of new brass with a "few" cases that measured a bit under spec length. But not every single one.
All of the cases I referenced were shorter than minimum spec. They were worked on after going through enough firing to have case stretch. Finish marks on the case mouth from trimming was apparent. On the Weatherbys, many weren't trimmed square.
When loading range "pick up" brass, there is a lot of work examining and correcting what others have done in their processing.
I'm overly careful, hence " you never know how many times it's been once fired " .

 

[DUSTY NOGGIN]

first, PMC would be one of the the last headstamps i would try , plinkers only ( i have found the most off centered flash holes in PMC brass ) ... FWIW im probably at 20k reloaded 223

range brass can be good , if you put the time in ,, sort it , sort at primer swage, then sort mil' commercial, then sort at trim, then sort headstamp , then at at initial sizing, sort with case gauge ,you can even sort at annealing ( anneal in batches after sorted , due to neck thicknesses )

i think you can have really good luck with LC as long as you stay within the same year

next time you get large buckets of brass, sort the same way. So, when one of these sort piles will fill a box , load them up or sell em as same headstamp

next question , not too many great shooting AR's out there , to 500 .. is yours tight ... the good thing about AR's that just shoot EHHH is there's 28 more behind em

IMO your kinda asking a lot out of an AR a , they'll do it but i think if you get a bolt action 223 you'll find easier success , something like a mossberg MVP patrol model that'll accept your AR / M4 magazines

 

[30BR]

Get a small base sizer too. Open bolt fired brass can get pretty oversized...

 

[SteelBanger]

first, PMC would be one of the the last headstamps i would try , plinkers only ( i have found the most off centered flash holes in PMC brass ) ... FWIW im probably at 20k reloaded 223

range brass can be good , if you put the time in ,, sort it , sort at primer swage, then sort mil' commercial, then sort at trim, then sort headstamp , then at at initial sizing, sort with case gauge ,you can even sort at annealing ( anneal in batches after sorted , due to neck thicknesses )

i think you can have really good luck with LC as long as you stay within the same year

next time you get large buckets of brass, sort the same way. So, when one of these sort piles will fill a box , load them up or sell em as same headstamp

next question , not too many great shooting AR's out there , to 500 .. is yours tight ... the good thing about AR's that just shoot EHHH is there's 28 more behind em

IMO your kinda asking a lot out of an AR a , they'll do it but i think if you get a bolt action 223 you'll find easier success , something like a mossberg MVP patrol model that'll accept your AR / M4 magazines

I'll ditch the PMC and restart my load development with my LC brass and see what changes ... maybe even sort by weigth / volume just for S&G's.

I built my AR from good components and feel it should be capable of consistent sub-MOA accuracy - which is all I'm asking it to do. It has an 18" SS White Oak 1:7 match barrel ... I don't think sub-MOA is asking too much from it, asking it to shoot .5 MOA would certainly be too high of an expectation.

I'm currently building a custom switch barrel bolt gun off a Terminus Zeus action and plan to add a .223 bolt and barrel, once that's done I'll certainly buy top shelf brass to shoot out of it, but for the AR's i'm just trying to get sub-MOA with range brass if I can, or low cost commercial brass if I need to.

 

[MZmoose]

Never had good luck with Lee dies. Used them when I started because I was getting into reloading to save money. When I got into shooting at longer ranges it was apparent my loads we're not up to it. I would upgrade your dies, sort range brass, and toss anything funny. I've been picking up Federal .308 brass after the police snipers finish their training for years. They only use factory stuff so it's once fired.

 

[jd palmer]

PMC brass sucks 4 sure.

 

[LVJ76]

I too have had batches of new brass with a "few" cases that measured a bit under spec length. But not every single one.
All of the cases I referenced were shorter than minimum spec. They were worked on after going through enough firing to have case stretch. Finish marks on the case mouth from trimming was apparent. On the Weatherbys, many weren't trimmed square.
When loading range "pick up" brass, there is a lot of work examining and correcting what others have done in their processing.
I'm overly careful, hence " you never know how many times it's been once fired " .

The odd or bad brass we get on every new batch or once fired brass we buy or pick up can be used to foul the barrel, at least that what I've done in the past.

Everything has a purpose.

 

[SteelBanger]

The odd or bad brass we get on every new batch or once fired brass we buy or pick up can be used to foul the barrel, at least that what I've done in the past.

Everything has a purpose.

Yep for sure those 4 short cases I found were used for sighting in / fouling.

 

[SteelBanger]

Never had good luck with Lee dies. Used them when I started because I was getting into reloading to save money. When I got into shooting at longer ranges it was apparent my loads we're not up to it. I would upgrade your dies, sort range brass, and toss anything funny. I've been picking up Federal .308 brass after the police snipers finish their training for years. They only use factory stuff so it's once fired.

What dies would you recommend? I have no experience with different dies such as bushing, small base, type S ... etc etc and really don't know anything about them. It seems Redding and Forster always come highly recommended but not sure what to look for. Would it be best to use a sizing and seating die from the same manufacturer or could i just pick up a better sizing die and keep using the Lee seating die?

 

[jdyoung]

Yep for sure those 4 short cases I found were used for sighting in / fouling.

Forgive me, but I never did believe in fouling shots.
I prefer a cold clean barrel, (Chrome/ Vanadium).
Couldn't ever sufficiently calculate the degree of fouling in a barrel. Sure do know when it's clean. though.
I do use "range brass" to test reloading dies .

 

[bullet man]

Ill have to admit I'm lazy, and I don't like prepping brass. I buy lake city by the thousands, either pull down or never loaded which is even better. If pull down I run it thru my Lyman m die put a flare on it and its ready to go. Then put some match bullets in them and I have match ammo for half the price as commercial ammo. Then when fired they will all match up to my chamber.