Larger diameter bullets allow more room for error?

[26Reload]

OP....what cartridges do you want to include in your answers...
308 caliber....308 cartridge
284 caliber....7mm08
264 caliber.....6.5mm08(I presume there is such) or a 6.5/284
If loaded to max loads for each being same weight bullets I don't see how a really fast 264 could be less damaging at given ranges compared to the other calibers......there just isn't enough difference....
Now if you want to jump to huge magnums sure....30 cal will easily take over the significance in wound channels.....

 

[FURMAN]

OP....what cartridges do you want to include in your answers...
308 caliber....308 cartridge
284 caliber....7mm08
264 caliber.....6.5mm08(I presume there is such) or a 6.5/284
If loaded to max loads for each being same weight bullets I don't see how a really fast 264 could be less damaging at given ranges compared to the other calibers......there just isn't enough difference....
Now if you want to jump to huge magnums sure....30 cal will easily take over the significance in wound channels.....

Read. He didn't want to discuss cartridges.

 

[26Reload]

I am not diving into the cartridge bias....but a slow 30 cal versus a hi 65 or 284 is not going to make a bigger wound channel....
50 cal mzldrs leave big holes...whether or not you hit the animal...
And it can be loaded up and down in powder charges....
So comparing wound channels from powder charges is the true comparison...
I know a guy had a 300 whisper built with a 16" barrel...13gr powder...1150fps....he claimed it shot the same kinetic energy at 500 yards as it did at the muzzle....so from that view point his would channel with a 300gr bullet would never change....as his bullet he used would never expand......even hollow points he shot did not expand...just curled the edge of the hollow points.....i saw one he said he pulled from a stump he shot at 200 yards...other that lost plastic tip...he could have reloaded the same bullet......could it kill a deer and an elk....sure....what would be the animals reaction to that bullet passing through......probably not much.....

 

[FURMAN]

I am not diving into the cartridge bias....but a slow 30 cal versus a hi 65 or 284 is not going to make a bigger wound channel....
50 cal mzldrs leave big holes...whether or not you hit the animal...
And it can be loaded up and down in powder charges....
So comparing wound channels from powder charges is the true comparison...
I know a guy had a 300 whisper built with a 16" barrel...13gr powder...1150fps....he claimed it shot the same kinetic energy at 500 yards as it did at the muzzle....so from that view point his would channel with a 300gr bullet would never change....as his bullet he used would never expand......even hollow points he shot did not expand...just curled the edge of the hollow points.....i saw one he said he pulled from a stump he shot at 200 yards...other that lost plastic tip...he could have reloaded the same bullet......could it kill a deer and an elk....sure....what would be the animals reaction to that bullet passing through......probably not much.....

Do not tell any of that nonsense to guys hunting the big five. Have you ever seen what a slow 300 a frame will do out of a .375H&H? I have and I can assure you a 6.5 will not duplicate it.

 

[FURMAN]

I am not diving into the cartridge bias....but a slow 30 cal versus a hi 65 or 284 is not going to make a bigger wound channel....
50 cal mzldrs leave big holes...whether or not you hit the animal...
And it can be loaded up and down in powder charges....
So comparing wound channels from powder charges is the true comparison...
I know a guy had a 300 whisper built with a 16" barrel...13gr powder...1150fps....he claimed it shot the same kinetic energy at 500 yards as it did at the muzzle....so from that view point his would channel with a 300gr bullet would never change....as his bullet he used would never expand......even hollow points he shot did not expand...just curled the edge of the hollow points.....i saw one he said he pulled from a stump he shot at 200 yards...other that lost plastic tip...he could have reloaded the same bullet......could it kill a deer and an elk....sure....what would be the animals reaction to that bullet passing through......probably not much.....

Seriously the more I read this the more I laugh. I guess we should all shoot a 220 swift pushing a 40gr 4k+? Maybe a 204 with a 32gr? I could not care less if you really believe that but do not want new guys think that is even remotely the case.

 

[Mach 1]

I think it has to do with more shear kinetic energy. Shot placement is most important but I've seen poor shots with larger calibers disable game so that they dosent run off and allow for another follow up shot. In my elk hunting experience taking family members a hundred or 2 hundred yards is a lot of difference in work sometimes when carrying out your prize. Smaller calibers work fine but the larger magnums definitely have there place.

 

[26Reload]

Whats nonsense.....
Bullet are designed for a purpose and specific speed....
Exceeding a bullets performance rating greatly increases the possibility that the bullet explodes on contact....loading down the same bullet may cause it to not open up....
Incomprehensible....

 

[Mach 1]

Have a story that demonstrates this. Couple years ago while deer hunting I was afforded the opportunity of a shot on a coyote at 278 yards. Not a "long" shot by any means, but awkward from a tree-stand and a branch for a rest. I felt good with the shot, but must have pulled it a little left and hit him in the right hip. It knocked him down in his tracks, but I had to climb down, walk over and close the deal with .22 cal pistol. Rifle bullet was a 225 gr BTSP w/muzzle velocity @ 2700 fps (338-06).

By your reasoning you maybe just should have took the first shot with your 22 pistol, but of course that dosent make sense from an accuracy stand point nor an energy/wound channel stand point. There is a place for the larger calibers

 

[Mach 1]

Ok this is my take. I think it's important to match the round to the game you're hunting. For example my belief is that you shouldn't be hunting elk with a .223. Has it been done? Yes. Did it work? Yes. Would it do the job if something went wrong? Probably not is my guess. Now is a .300 winny appropriate for elk? Depends. With a 125 gr varmint bullet ? No. With a tough mono or bonded bullet designed to break an elks shoulder and keep going? Yes.


I think that the larger frontal diameter of different calibers makes a difference. Obviously there is less difference between a.264 and .308 bullets assuming they are constructed the same and hitting with the same amount of energy. But I still think it's the way they that the bullets transfer their energy.

Example. On paper a 26 Nosler with 140 accubond should hit with a force equalish to a .300 win mag with 180 accubond when compared at 500 yards. And while they will both kill an elk at 500 yards I think that bullet placement being equal the .300 will kill quicker due to a difference in the size of the wound channel and the way the energy is transferred.

So does the size of an animals vital area change depending on caliber chosen? No. But let's say for example that I had to compare the 26 Nosler and the .300 WM described above on an elk at 500 yards. I misjudge the wind and hit the back of the lungs instead of center punching them. Due to a the way the energy seems to transfer different and maybe a larger wound channel I think the elk would go down faster with the .300 WM. Maybe only a few seconds faster but faster nonetheless.

I have no scientific evidence to back any of this up just having killed or witnessed the kill of 40ish elk with rifles from .270win, 7mm mag, .308 win, 6.5 creedmor, .30-06, 35 Whelen, 45/70, .300 RUM and .300 WM would say that the bigger bullets just seemed to hit harder.

If your 26 nobler with a 140 hits as hard as a 300 am with a 180 you need to chamber a barrel longer than 16 inches. Apple's to Apple's the 26 nobler and 300 win mag are by no means in the same category as far bullet energy

 

[Mach 1]

I have a question about momentum - doesn't bullet construction play a large part in momentum and pass through?

It sure dose but I will put in to you like this. If you are going to get shot in the leg and you get two choices, one being a 9mm and one being a 45acp. Whichever shot will be placed identically with the same fmj bullets. I think only a fool would choose the 45acp.

 

[FIGJAM]

Read. He didn't want to discuss cartridges.

I thought there might be some wisdom in leaving specific cartridges out of it to avoid the I shoot it therefore it is the best type of discussion.

I definitely think velocity should be part of the discussion. In my heart I have always always based my cartridge choice on energy at the longest range i might take a shot. There was another thread where i ran the energy from a 200 gr 308 bullet at 2850 FPS was 2200 ft lbs at 500 yards and a 264 140 gr bullet at 3300 fps was also 2200 ft lbs. at 500 yards. I see those numbers and think they are equally good for the job on a deer or an elk given the same bullet, for sake of argument lets just say a nosler accubond.

My logic might be flawed, that is why I asked this question. If a larger diameter bullet creates an exponentially larger wound channel with that 2200 ft lbs of energy, then this margin of error that everybody keeps talking about could be legit. If we are talking the difference in wound channel is only .044 with 2200 fr lbs of energy I am thinking the margin of error is immaterial.

 

[FURMAN]

I thought there might be some wisdom in leaving specific cartridges out of it to avoid the I shoot it therefore it is the best type of discussion.

I definitely think velocity should be part of the discussion. In my heart I have always always based my cartridge choice on energy at the longest range i might take a shot. There was another thread where i ran the energy from a 200 gr 308 bullet at 2850 FPS was 2200 ft lbs at 500 yards and a 264 140 gr bullet at 3300 fps was also 2200 ft lbs. at 500 yards. I see those numbers and think they are equally good for the job on a deer or an elk given the same bullet, for sake of argument lets just say a nosler accubond.

My logic might be flawed, that is why I asked this question. If a larger diameter bullet creates an exponentially larger wound channel with that 2200 ft lbs of energy, then this margin of error that everybody keeps talking about could be legit. If we are talking the difference in wound channel is only .044 with 2200 fr lbs of energy I am thinking the margin of error is immaterial.

I fully believe your logic is mostly sound however bullet construction(as you said) and momentum play a roll. I will repeat, however, momentum has nothing to do with construction. Momentum is mass x velocity. Energy is mass x velocity squared. See how momentum can still be higher at slower speeds. Penetration, as I already stated, does have to do with bullet construction as well as momentum. If you have tons of energy but the bullet comes apart that momentum will quickly be lost. In the end all of this has to be balanced but generally speaking a heavier bullet will create larger wound channels given the same type bullet construction.

 

[FURMAN]

Go read Broz's experience with 7s and 30s on elk.

 

[FIGJAM]

I fully believe your logic is mostly sound however bullet construction(as you said) and momentum play a roll. I will repeat, however, momentum has nothing to do with construction. Momentum is mass x velocity. Energy is mass x velocity squared. See how momentum can still be higher at slower speeds. Penetration, as I already stated, does have to do with bullet construction as well as momentum. If you have tons of energy but the bullet comes apart that momentum will quickly be lost. In the end all of this has to be balanced but generally speaking a heavier bullet will create larger wound channels given the same type bullet construction.

The interesting thing about the energy calculation is that it doesn't care what the diameter of the object is - just what it weighs and how fast it is going. I am inclined to believe that energy might be more of a compensating factor for error rather than bullet diameter.

Wouldn't the momentum of a .284 150gr bullet be greater than the momentum of a 150gr 308 bullet? Is sectional density related to momentum and how well a bullets retains its momentum?

Sorry, I am a finance major, not a physics major