Energy or bullet diameter most important?

[MJU]

Let's say you are hunting for elk sized and smaller game and are targeting 750 yards or less. Would you say it would be more important for lethal, ethical kill to be the size of the bullet (just an example 30 caliber vs 25 caliber) or the ballistic energy the bullet gives out to that range (just an example 1200 vs 1800 lbs regardless of bullet size)?

I am trying to leave this somewhat open ended to avoid only comments from those who love a certain caliber, but I am considering a future rifle and am hopeful with plenty of practice I could possible do what I listed above. So many calibers out there, I just want to start with the right base and get proficient from there.

Thanks in advance.

 

[FEENIX]

Let's say you are hunting for elk sized and smaller game and are targeting 750 yards or less. Would you say it would be more important for lethal, ethical kill to be the size of the bullet (just an example 30 caliber vs 25 caliber) or the ballistic energy the bullet gives out to that range (just an example 1200 vs 1800 lbs regardless of bullet size)?

I am trying to leave this somewhat open ended to avoid only comments from those who love a certain caliber, but I am considering a future rifle and am hopeful with plenty of practice I could possible do what I listed above. So many calibers out there, I just want to start with the right base and get proficient from there.

Thanks in advance.

My unwritten rule is 1500 FT-LBS of energy at POI for elk size game and 100 FT-LBS for deer size game; shot placement is still the key.

My go to chambering is the .300 WM from antelope to elk size game.

 

[ATH]

My unwritten rule is 1500 FT-LBS of energy at POI for elk size game and 100 FT-LBS for deer size game; shot placement is still the key.

I think/hope you forget a zero on your rule of thumb for deer?

For me the answer is "yes". The key is you have to cause sufficient damage. Energy will make up for lesser diameter to an extent, but larger caliber will make up for lower energy. Larger diameter also means larger bullets which can accomplish things a smaller diameter bullet won't do no matter the energy.

To pick a couple extremes, a smaller diameter bullet like a 6mm is simply not going to give you the penetration of a .45-70 without using bullets which leave a small wound channel (minimal expansion). The .45-70 doesnt need high energy to leave a nice wound channel. For a shot needing penetration energy becomes kind of irrelevant if it is expended outside the vitals. My 243AI maintains much higher energy with 105gr bullets than my 45-70 with 325-405gr bullets to 300 yards. But I'd be a LOT more comfortable shooting an elk at that range with the 45-70 than the 243AI. Not that I consider either ideal in that scenario.

For deer, a very wide range of things work. For game as big as elk when moderate to long ranges are involved, my personal preference is for a caliber of .30-.358, magnum velocities for the .30 (in case of long range) and accepting more moderate velocities but also accepting shorter range with the .358. Of course you can get both with .338s if you like the recoil or brakes. Even larger calibers leave no doubt on both energy and penetration by typically only at more moderated ranges.

 

[J E Custom]

Larger heaver bullets can transfer more energy to the game and have more momentum that Helps penetrate thicker skin and bodies.

A lighter smaller bullet may have the same energy but does not have the ability to transfer all of its energy unless it is stopped buy the game hunted.

In many cases cartridges like the 7 Rem mag will pass completely through a deer sized animal without transferring all of its energy allowing the animal to run long distances before collapsing, but a less powerful cartridge like the 7/08 will knock them off there feet with far less potential energy and transfer most if not all of its energy to the game.

So to answer your question , It is a combination of both, based on the game you will be hunting. Ideally, you want the bullet to end up under the skin on the opposite side (It delivered all of its energy to the game).

J E CUSTOM

 

[WildRose]

My unwritten rule is 1500 FT-LBS of energy at POI for elk size game and 100 FT-LBS for deer size game; shot placement is still the key.

My go to chambering is the .300 WM from antelope to elk size game.

I'm thinking you dropped a 0 up there and meant to say 1,500ft-lbs for Elk and 1,000ft-lbs for deer.

That's the same "rule of thumb" I've heard forever and I have no clue who dreamed it up.

Number one I think is the quality of the bullet being used and number two, putting it in the right spot with energy coming in third. Diameter means little or nothing as long as the bullet reaches and penetrates the vitals.

The difference in a half inch hole through the heart vs a one inch hole through the heart is negligible, the only difference is going to be a few steps.

The difference in a .250" hole through your spine and a 1.0" hole through the spine is no difference at all in reality as both immediately interrupt the CNS.

 

[WildRose]

... .For deer, a very wide range of things work. For game as big as elk when moderate to long ranges are involved, my personal preference is for a caliber of .30-.358, magnum velocities for the .30 (in case of long range) and accepting more moderate velocities but also accepting shorter range with the .358. Of course you can get both with .338s if you like the recoil or brakes. Even larger calibers leave no doubt on both energy and penetration by typically only at more moderated ranges.

I think there's a lot of common sense here but let me sharpen your point a bit.

For me as long as I'm shooting high BC bullets if I'm intending on shooting beyond 300yds I want to start with a minimal muzzle velocity of 2750fps

 

[fiftybmg]

It is easy for small calibers at very high velocity to present impressive energy figures, which may not be an indication of hunting performance.

A clean wound channel for quick bleed out should be considered above energy numbers, and this also necessarily factors in the bullet type used.

 

[Frank in the Laurels]

Hard to beat .308/.338 cal holes in game !

 

[Canadian Bushman]

So to answer your question , It is a combination of both, based on the game you will be hunting. Ideally, you want the bullet to end up under the skin on the opposite side (It delivered all of its energy to the game).

J E CUSTOM

+1
Velocity at impact also comes into play.
Like so many things in life, its not as simple as one or the other.

 

[FEENIX]

Yep, it was a typo, it should have been "1000 FT-LBS", thanks.

 

[J E Custom]

Yep, it was a typo, it should have been "1000 FT-LBS", thanks.

These guys won't let you get away with anything Ha Ha.

J E CUSTOM

 

[FEENIX]

These guys won't let you get away with anything Ha Ha.

J E CUSTOM

LL! It's all good though.

 

[wilkup]

I think it depends on what game you're targeting. In my experience, elk are toughest to kill, but bears can be tricky too, even though they're much easier to knock down.
If black bear are on your list of targeted animals, I believe bigger diameters are better than high energy on target because they have so much fur and getting decent blood trails depends largely on the size of the holes you're punching in them.
For me, I've decided on a fast 30 as my optimum combo for hunting near and far with enough size of energy, but sometimes I still grab the little 44 mag saddle gun because it's light and easy to bring on the trail.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

I think energy is a nice number to look at as part of the total equation to determine if you are using enough "gun". Energy alone is an arbitrary number.

Energy "dump" into an animal is a physics wives tale. To have a bullet end up in the far side hide would mean that it has to slow down enough while inside the animal to stop just before exiting. The slower that bullet gets while inside the animal the less damage it does. To predictably have a bullet stop on the far side you would have to determine the impact velocity needed and never have that velocity vary due to different distance of shot. Think about the total energy of a bullet hitting the animal with no penetration. The animal would literally walk away with no ill effect. I can shoot a steel target with huge energy and it will cause it to swing a few inches. I can push that same target with one finger and create a larger swing. There is no such thing as knock down power. Myth Busters did an episode on that very subject and proved that it does not exist.

Bullets kill by tearing soft tissue in order to cause hemorrhage or by interrupting the central nervous system via the brain or spinal cord. The cns stops by loss of blood or physical damage.

Simply put the best most predictable way to kill an animal is to put a large permanent wound channel completely through the animals vital organs.

In my opinion the bigger displacement is more important in the total equation.

Steve