Key Kirby/Fiftydriver how about some V-block info
- Thread starter robbor
- Start date
Help Support Long Range Hunting Forum
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Robbor,
I have two Barrel Bedding V-Block designs for my APS rifles. One is the Heavy V-Block and the other is the Sporter V-Block.
The Sporter V-Block is a much trimmer design compared to the Heavy V-Block. This was designed for the sole purpose of obtaining V-Block consistancy but in a rifle that weights in the 12 lb range. This is not exactly light weight but compared to any other Barrel Blocked rifle design this is about 50% lighter on average.
This is the top view of a sporter V-block after machining and ready to be bedded into the stock. The stock used for these rifles is the McMillan A-5. As you can see the block needs to be tapered to allow for the taper in the stock forend. This makes the Sporter V-Block a bit more time consuming to build.
This is the bottom view of the same V-block. YOu can again see the taper and all of the relief grooves milled into the block for some serious grip when filled and surrounded by bedding compound. You can also see the two 1/4-28 tpi mounting bolts and their ports in this view.
This pic shows the block secured to the specially contoured APS Sporter V-Block barrel made exclusively by Lilja rifle barrels.
This pic shows the V-Block after the stock has been inletted. The bolt ports still need to be milled into the V-Block. The only thing that touched between the stock and the barreled action is the section of barrel that contacts the V-Block and the conventional positioned recoil lug.
These are pics of a finished APS Sporter V-Block rifle. As you can see there is really no dramatic external signs that this is anything but a conventional designed rifle. Other then the extended full diameter barrel shank. This allows the scope to be mounted in a conventional, low position for best shooting comfort. Also, just makes the rifle look better in my opinion.
The sporter V-Blocks are generally 7" long and have two mounting bolts that are drilled and tapped directly into the barrel.
The APS Heavy V-Block system is a bit differnet. Its designed for any barrel length and weight that you can think up as long as the stock will accept the barrel size. Both V-Block designs are basically the same width as the barrels used.
More precisely, they are the same width as the stocks barrel channel so roughly 50 to 80 thou larger then the barrel diameter in most cases.
The Heavy V-Blocks will range from a 7" long 2 bolt design up to the very large 9" and 10" 3 bolt designs. The barrel weight and diameter used determine which is to be used for each project.
This pic shows a 9" V-Block bedded into a McMillan MBR Tooley stock which is my preferred stock for this rifle design in a 25 to 30 lb rifle. This stock offers plenty of forend depth to allow a very stable V-Block to be used.
This pic shows the underside of the same stock showing the mounting ports. This stock has not been finished yet. After curing, stainless steel port bushings will be machined to fill the ports giving it a very finished look.
Here is a finished stock with the port bushings installed, much cleaner look to the finished product.
This is a pic of a finished Heavy V-Block using a Rem 700 receiver and a 34.5" 1.350" diameter straight cylinder barrel. Without the V-Block this receiver would not handle a barrel of this size but with the V-Block the receiver is totally freefloated turning it into a stress free componant of the rifle bedding system.
Again, notice the ability to mount the scope low over the receiver, this is a bonus of this design. Also keeps the traditional lines of the rifle intact as well.
The theory behind the APS V-Block designs is to offer a traditional appearing rifle with the ability to mount scopes in traditional locations and also allowing easily available stocks and barrels to be used without exotic barrel contours and relocation recoil lugs and such.
Receivers are totally free floated as are barrels ahead of the V-Blocks. If you have a 35" barrel that is 1.350" in diameter sitting in a 9" V-block, basically you have a barrel with the stiffness and rigidity of a 26" barrel that is 1.350" in diameter, EXTREMELY STIFF!!! This is because that is the amount of barrel that is not solidly supported by the V-Block.
The receivers are non stressed so receivers such as Rem 700, Savage 110s, Sakos, Win M70s and really any other conventional receiver can be used with a very heavy large barrel in the Heavy V-Block design, or they can also offer extreme performance in a lighter weight system with the Sporter V-Block.
These McMillan stock are not the only ones that can be used with this design. There must be sufficent forend mass though to accept the V-Blocks.
Here is an example of a Heavy V-Block based on a Rem 700, 1.250" straight cylinder 30" Lilja using a Holland Signature Heavy Varmint Laminated wood stock. These stocks also work extremely well for these rifles.
For extreme consistancy the V-Block rifles are very hard to beat, especially if you want to use a conventional receiver with a very heavy or long barrel. That is not to say they do not work well with custom receivers either because they certainly do.
Good Shooting!!
Kirby Allen(50)
I have two Barrel Bedding V-Block designs for my APS rifles. One is the Heavy V-Block and the other is the Sporter V-Block.
The Sporter V-Block is a much trimmer design compared to the Heavy V-Block. This was designed for the sole purpose of obtaining V-Block consistancy but in a rifle that weights in the 12 lb range. This is not exactly light weight but compared to any other Barrel Blocked rifle design this is about 50% lighter on average.
This is the top view of a sporter V-block after machining and ready to be bedded into the stock. The stock used for these rifles is the McMillan A-5. As you can see the block needs to be tapered to allow for the taper in the stock forend. This makes the Sporter V-Block a bit more time consuming to build.
This is the bottom view of the same V-block. YOu can again see the taper and all of the relief grooves milled into the block for some serious grip when filled and surrounded by bedding compound. You can also see the two 1/4-28 tpi mounting bolts and their ports in this view.
This pic shows the block secured to the specially contoured APS Sporter V-Block barrel made exclusively by Lilja rifle barrels.
This pic shows the V-Block after the stock has been inletted. The bolt ports still need to be milled into the V-Block. The only thing that touched between the stock and the barreled action is the section of barrel that contacts the V-Block and the conventional positioned recoil lug.
These are pics of a finished APS Sporter V-Block rifle. As you can see there is really no dramatic external signs that this is anything but a conventional designed rifle. Other then the extended full diameter barrel shank. This allows the scope to be mounted in a conventional, low position for best shooting comfort. Also, just makes the rifle look better in my opinion.
The sporter V-Blocks are generally 7" long and have two mounting bolts that are drilled and tapped directly into the barrel.
The APS Heavy V-Block system is a bit differnet. Its designed for any barrel length and weight that you can think up as long as the stock will accept the barrel size. Both V-Block designs are basically the same width as the barrels used.
More precisely, they are the same width as the stocks barrel channel so roughly 50 to 80 thou larger then the barrel diameter in most cases.
The Heavy V-Blocks will range from a 7" long 2 bolt design up to the very large 9" and 10" 3 bolt designs. The barrel weight and diameter used determine which is to be used for each project.
This pic shows a 9" V-Block bedded into a McMillan MBR Tooley stock which is my preferred stock for this rifle design in a 25 to 30 lb rifle. This stock offers plenty of forend depth to allow a very stable V-Block to be used.
This pic shows the underside of the same stock showing the mounting ports. This stock has not been finished yet. After curing, stainless steel port bushings will be machined to fill the ports giving it a very finished look.
Here is a finished stock with the port bushings installed, much cleaner look to the finished product.
This is a pic of a finished Heavy V-Block using a Rem 700 receiver and a 34.5" 1.350" diameter straight cylinder barrel. Without the V-Block this receiver would not handle a barrel of this size but with the V-Block the receiver is totally freefloated turning it into a stress free componant of the rifle bedding system.
Again, notice the ability to mount the scope low over the receiver, this is a bonus of this design. Also keeps the traditional lines of the rifle intact as well.
The theory behind the APS V-Block designs is to offer a traditional appearing rifle with the ability to mount scopes in traditional locations and also allowing easily available stocks and barrels to be used without exotic barrel contours and relocation recoil lugs and such.
Receivers are totally free floated as are barrels ahead of the V-Blocks. If you have a 35" barrel that is 1.350" in diameter sitting in a 9" V-block, basically you have a barrel with the stiffness and rigidity of a 26" barrel that is 1.350" in diameter, EXTREMELY STIFF!!! This is because that is the amount of barrel that is not solidly supported by the V-Block.
The receivers are non stressed so receivers such as Rem 700, Savage 110s, Sakos, Win M70s and really any other conventional receiver can be used with a very heavy large barrel in the Heavy V-Block design, or they can also offer extreme performance in a lighter weight system with the Sporter V-Block.
These McMillan stock are not the only ones that can be used with this design. There must be sufficent forend mass though to accept the V-Blocks.
Here is an example of a Heavy V-Block based on a Rem 700, 1.250" straight cylinder 30" Lilja using a Holland Signature Heavy Varmint Laminated wood stock. These stocks also work extremely well for these rifles.
For extreme consistancy the V-Block rifles are very hard to beat, especially if you want to use a conventional receiver with a very heavy or long barrel. That is not to say they do not work well with custom receivers either because they certainly do.
Good Shooting!!
Kirby Allen(50)
What is the minm barrel diam you recomend tapping?
Can this be done to a normal varmint taper savage RUM barrel, or is it to small dai with the barrel nut design to where I would have to get a barrel that does not use the nut? Roughtly what do you charge for tapping the barrels?
I like the design/idea of the hidden block supporting the barrel and floating the action.
Can this be done to a normal varmint taper savage RUM barrel, or is it to small dai with the barrel nut design to where I would have to get a barrel that does not use the nut? Roughtly what do you charge for tapping the barrels?
I like the design/idea of the hidden block supporting the barrel and floating the action.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
D-A,
The depth of the mounting hole into the barrel will depend on several things, barrel diameter and chamber diameter mainly.
As a general rule, I mill them to 0.200" deep and use a bottom tap to thread right to the bottom of the hole. I also use a flat bottom bolt to utilize as much thread contact as possible in this depth of hole.
If the Barrel Bedding V-Block, at least my design, is set up correctly, there is no need for high grade mounting bolts. Now you certainly want quality bolts but nothing special is needed here.
The reason is because the mounting bolts serve only one purpose, to hold the barrel "DOWN" into the V-Block. They in no way have to control the recoil forces. This is accomplished by the conventional recoil lug in its conventional location.
Most clamp on blocks use the block itself for the recoil lug and also rely on frictional clamping pressure around the barrel to transfer recoil energy. This system works well but requires a large clamping area and this also effects scope mounting height and appearance of the rifle, my system does not.
The mounting screws are centered in the ports and also have 82 degree tapered heads that mate with the 82 degree tapered ports to perfectly align them in the mounting holes. When done correctly, they should be totally floated and only touching at the barrel threads and at the 82 degree tapered head of the bolt to Block.
There are no recoil stresses at all on these bolts, no more then a conventional bedding system.
Good Shooting!!
Kirby Allen(50)
The depth of the mounting hole into the barrel will depend on several things, barrel diameter and chamber diameter mainly.
As a general rule, I mill them to 0.200" deep and use a bottom tap to thread right to the bottom of the hole. I also use a flat bottom bolt to utilize as much thread contact as possible in this depth of hole.
If the Barrel Bedding V-Block, at least my design, is set up correctly, there is no need for high grade mounting bolts. Now you certainly want quality bolts but nothing special is needed here.
The reason is because the mounting bolts serve only one purpose, to hold the barrel "DOWN" into the V-Block. They in no way have to control the recoil forces. This is accomplished by the conventional recoil lug in its conventional location.
Most clamp on blocks use the block itself for the recoil lug and also rely on frictional clamping pressure around the barrel to transfer recoil energy. This system works well but requires a large clamping area and this also effects scope mounting height and appearance of the rifle, my system does not.
The mounting screws are centered in the ports and also have 82 degree tapered heads that mate with the 82 degree tapered ports to perfectly align them in the mounting holes. When done correctly, they should be totally floated and only touching at the barrel threads and at the 82 degree tapered head of the bolt to Block.
There are no recoil stresses at all on these bolts, no more then a conventional bedding system.
Good Shooting!!
Kirby Allen(50)
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Robbor,
I recommend a minimum barrel diameter, at least barrel shank diameter of 1.250" This allows one to use a 0.200" deep threading hole and still have over 0.300" of solid steel between the chamber and the hole. This example is with a Lapua or big Wby class diameter chamber.
For my 338 Allen Mag or any other 408 CT chamber I would increase this to 1.350" for an added safety margin.
A barrel that is contours such as all the commerical barrels makes this very difficult to do. The trouble is in machining the V-Block to match the taper of the barrel contour.
As such I only recommend using this system with the apporpriate barrel contour. That being the Special APS Sporter V-Block contour from Lilja or any straight cylinder barrel for the Heavy V-Block rifles.
For a Savage receiver, I recommend getting rid of the lock nut and having a new match grade barrel fitted in the same manor as the Rem 700 and then the V-Block system would be identical.
Because of the diameter of the factory barrels I do not recommend attempting this bedding system on them.
Its a good system, there are advantages and disadvantages just like any other Block bedding system. Need to be weighed for each project and see which system gets you what you want the best way possible!!
Kirby Allen(50)
I recommend a minimum barrel diameter, at least barrel shank diameter of 1.250" This allows one to use a 0.200" deep threading hole and still have over 0.300" of solid steel between the chamber and the hole. This example is with a Lapua or big Wby class diameter chamber.
For my 338 Allen Mag or any other 408 CT chamber I would increase this to 1.350" for an added safety margin.
A barrel that is contours such as all the commerical barrels makes this very difficult to do. The trouble is in machining the V-Block to match the taper of the barrel contour.
As such I only recommend using this system with the apporpriate barrel contour. That being the Special APS Sporter V-Block contour from Lilja or any straight cylinder barrel for the Heavy V-Block rifles.
For a Savage receiver, I recommend getting rid of the lock nut and having a new match grade barrel fitted in the same manor as the Rem 700 and then the V-Block system would be identical.
Because of the diameter of the factory barrels I do not recommend attempting this bedding system on them.
Its a good system, there are advantages and disadvantages just like any other Block bedding system. Need to be weighed for each project and see which system gets you what you want the best way possible!!
Kirby Allen(50)
OK, I'm listening. I'm ordering parts for a new long range system now, a 300WM. Obermeyer barrel, McMillan A5 Remington magnum action, badger base, Shilen trigger. Boots will be getting a call later this week, final decisions will be made then, but it will be long. I would like to know the trade off between a vblock, and free float. I suppose the 300WM will work fine floated, but the vblock will dampen harmonics and make the load sweet spot wider?
Thanks in advance for the knowledge.
Thanks in advance for the knowledge.
Im not trying to speak for kirby.
I would think the tradeoffs would be:
Expense of-the block,milling stock, fitting,threading barrel
And as said its porpose is to use a long heavy barrel where the stree might be to much for the bedding and action.
I cant say that I like the idea of a .2" in hole but im shure it works. The pro would be a floated action and reducing the harmonics by theoretically shortening your barrel.
I would think the tradeoffs would be:
Expense of-the block,milling stock, fitting,threading barrel
And as said its porpose is to use a long heavy barrel where the stree might be to much for the bedding and action.
I cant say that I like the idea of a .2" in hole but im shure it works. The pro would be a floated action and reducing the harmonics by theoretically shortening your barrel.
rrobor -
After talking w/ Bruce Bbaer over th phone some years back, I made up my own ridiculously low-buck
barrel-clamping set-up.
I shoot a .224" cal " Palma Taper " 28" finished K & P
1-8 SS barrel.
My current rifle started out with the barrel mounted to a Wichita WBR1375 action, all pillar-bedded into a Kelbly Hunter-bech stock.
When I kept getting vertical creep in my groups, I went to my new barrel clamping set-up.
My clamping arrangmenet consists of 2 plumbing repair plates
( shaped like a house roof ) that have been double-up.
The doubled "v" shaped plates are about 3.75"long,and cad plated it appears.
Along each edge , they have 4 total square holes
( 2 each side ) that accept 1/4" " carriage " type bolts.
The carriage bolts of course have a square shank above their threads, which are held in place from rotation by the acepting square holes on the "v" plates.
I place the "vee" plates atop the barrel's straight breech section ( mine is long enough to do that ).
The barrel sits in an aluminum "I" beam set on its side
to obtain basically...an "H" beam.
The barrel is 1.250" diam, so top edges of "H" beam are relieved slightly to "float" my 1.375" diam Wichita.
I use 2 doubled bottom plates taken from "U"-bolts
( 4 pc total ) to provide desired upward clamping action from beneath the bottom of the "H" beam.
This is accomplished by passing the four carriage bolts
through the "U" bolt torque plates, and tightening down via correct sized 1/4" self-locking nuts / washers.
The beam is 36" long. Forened and buttstock are fashioned from composite deck board materiel, sized to fit me.
A rudimentray cheek piece is removable, to allow access for cleaning rod to breech.
A slot is cut into bottom cneter web of "H" beam to accept recoil lug. to arrest reward recoil momment.
Another slot is cut to allow trigger to pass through.
With scope, rings, tapered 20moa base, and simple trigger guard, rifle wiehs in at just past 16lb.
Gun shoots SO well, I will never go back too conventional
bedded varmint rifle again.
Got all metal parts for clamping set-up as described form local hardware store. Total cost: around $10.00
Best thing I EVER did for my accuracy shooting.
Recoil is streight back. Rifle looks novel, however
" agricultural " it may appear.
.357Mag
After talking w/ Bruce Bbaer over th phone some years back, I made up my own ridiculously low-buck
barrel-clamping set-up.
I shoot a .224" cal " Palma Taper " 28" finished K & P
1-8 SS barrel.
My current rifle started out with the barrel mounted to a Wichita WBR1375 action, all pillar-bedded into a Kelbly Hunter-bech stock.
When I kept getting vertical creep in my groups, I went to my new barrel clamping set-up.
My clamping arrangmenet consists of 2 plumbing repair plates
( shaped like a house roof ) that have been double-up.
The doubled "v" shaped plates are about 3.75"long,and cad plated it appears.
Along each edge , they have 4 total square holes
( 2 each side ) that accept 1/4" " carriage " type bolts.
The carriage bolts of course have a square shank above their threads, which are held in place from rotation by the acepting square holes on the "v" plates.
I place the "vee" plates atop the barrel's straight breech section ( mine is long enough to do that ).
The barrel sits in an aluminum "I" beam set on its side
to obtain basically...an "H" beam.
The barrel is 1.250" diam, so top edges of "H" beam are relieved slightly to "float" my 1.375" diam Wichita.
I use 2 doubled bottom plates taken from "U"-bolts
( 4 pc total ) to provide desired upward clamping action from beneath the bottom of the "H" beam.
This is accomplished by passing the four carriage bolts
through the "U" bolt torque plates, and tightening down via correct sized 1/4" self-locking nuts / washers.
The beam is 36" long. Forened and buttstock are fashioned from composite deck board materiel, sized to fit me.
A rudimentray cheek piece is removable, to allow access for cleaning rod to breech.
A slot is cut into bottom cneter web of "H" beam to accept recoil lug. to arrest reward recoil momment.
Another slot is cut to allow trigger to pass through.
With scope, rings, tapered 20moa base, and simple trigger guard, rifle wiehs in at just past 16lb.
Gun shoots SO well, I will never go back too conventional
bedded varmint rifle again.
Got all metal parts for clamping set-up as described form local hardware store. Total cost: around $10.00
Best thing I EVER did for my accuracy shooting.
Recoil is streight back. Rifle looks novel, however
" agricultural " it may appear.
.357Mag
James Jones
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2002
- Messages
- 2,854
Man that sounds pretty cool , but I'm kinda at a loss , its this weapon shoulder fired or is it more like a rail gun?
can you post a pic?
can you post a pic?
Kirby, have you ever thought about welding a tapped SS plate to the barrel then having it just polt to the stock like a normal action would??? Or even match up t a alum plat in the stock??? Just thinking out loud. I have never really heard of welding to a barrel, dont knoe if it would remove any temper.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
No welding on barrels for me!!!
Just to many safety and consistancy issues to deal with.
Kirby Allen(50)
Just to many safety and consistancy issues to deal with.
Kirby Allen(50)
Black Diamond 408
Well-Known Member
Yeah lets make them shoot around corners!
Kirby, looking through your V-Block design bedding system, the thought struck me that this is an over sized version of Accurate Beddings Systems bedding system. Would that be a correct way of describing your V-Block bedding system?
