Honesty and group size

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by Smoak352, Jan 2, 2012.

  1. Smoak352

    Smoak352 Well-Known Member

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    I have seen people on this site claim they shoot under 1" groups at 500 yards. I do believe there are people no this site that can do it but I don't believe it is as many people that claim they can. I have read people shooting under one inch at 500 yards with a factory stock rifle. Is this really possible? With my 20x Leupold scope the cross hairs look to be about 3" thick on a target 500 yards away. How much talk is straight BS here?
     
  2. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    Its all in the definition of the number of shots that constitute a group.

    IMO a group consists of no less than 5 shots. Preferably 10 shots.

    Inasmuch as I am mainly interested in placement of a single cold bore shot, I shoot at least 1 shot per day, some times more than one day apart, for 5 shots.

    Thus I am a happy shooter if I can consistently beat MOA @ 500 yds and beyond.

    When I go busting LR rocks its the first shot at the first rock that counts. Usually elevation is spot on. If windage is off more than 1/2 moa I'm a sorry weatherman.:rolleyes:

    This reasoning only counts when not shooting on my home range. I have the wind pretty much nailed there. It's out in the wild where things get discouraging at times.:)
     

  3. justgoto

    justgoto Well-Known Member

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    Of course it is possible. I get less than 2 inches at 300 yards with a scoped 30-30 regularly.

    I shot a 300 yard group from a 95 year old iron sighted rifle this week that should be impossible:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KppHziXP69k"]Impossible 30-06 Group - YouTube[/ame]

    Not that I'll ever duplicate that, but I know I can get sub-moa accuracy from it at many distances, and my front site is a lot wider than a scope cross hair.

    400 yard sub-moa.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ9WwQTGCZo"]Peep Sighted 30-06, Sub-Moa at 400 yards - YouTube[/ame]

    200 yard sub-moa.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqnEb8RttrA"]H4895 Load Test - YouTube[/ame]

    Those are the last 3 groups I've shot with this rifle all sub-moa with a rifle with a damaged bore.

    I believe everyone on this site, this site is where I've learned how to make my rifles accurate. Nowhere else.
     
  4. Gene

    Gene Well-Known Member

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    Its possible, but can they do that consistently? I think many of those braggers really mean one minute of angle, not one inch. One MOA at 500 yards is 5", which is more realistic.
     
  5. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    Now you have done it!:D

    A rifles routine day to day grouping and "once upon a time" are two different things.

    Plus there is not a standardized definitition of a "group". Is it 3,5,10 shots or I put 3 shots on/near a rock at x distance? Seen all here to include "minute of 5 gal bucket (MOB).

    To keep it in perspective the world record for 600 yards is around 3/4 inch for 5 shots on BR guns shot off benches and rests.
     
  6. DCGS

    DCGS <strong>Official LRH SPONSOR</strong>

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    I have shot a .577, 3 shot group at 500 yds with my 6Br. I can't do it every time. If I could I would win every 600 yd match I went to. The gun will shoot 1/2 moa 99% of the time if I do my part. Those really good groups are rare and just make us try harder to do it every time. Every body has to dream a little. Just keep shooting and enjoy. Dan

    Thanks Joel for a beautiful stock!
     

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  7. liltank

    liltank Well-Known Member

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    To add to this, the long range heavy gun at Williamsport 1000yd is 2.8" 10 shot group from a highly modified 300WSM shooting 210 Berger's.

    My gun has been very consistent. It is a Savage action with an aftermarket barrel. Here is two separate targets on 2 separate days.

    100yd prone, 3 shots .116"
    [​IMG]

    718yd prone, 3 shots
    [​IMG]

    Playing around with 175 Nosler Custom Comp
    [​IMG]

    Here is a pic from my Savage in its original factory configuration. It's a 5 shot group shot prone with Hornady 110 V-max Savage Mod12 VLP w/DBM, at the time of this target there were absolutely no modifications to the rifle at all.
    [​IMG]

    Tank
     
  8. Korhil78

    Korhil78 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I think that most people are saying they are shooting less than MOA, which is below 5" groups at 500. I have never shot a 1 inch group at 500 yards but I don't have a custom rifle. I have shot a 2 1/2 to 3 " group at 500 yards which I will take anyday of the week!

    After I confirm my loads, I really dont punch paper anymore. I go to the 10" steel plates that I have set out to the distances that I want to shoot which is only out to 600 yds so far. I'm a hunter so what is important to me is being able to hit that 10" kill zone consistently on any animal I am shooting at.
     
  9. Derek M.

    Derek M. Well-Known Member

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    1 MOA = 1.047" at 100 yards
    1 MOA = 5.235" at 500 yards

    Yes, I believe a 1 INCH group can be done at 500 yards but not from your regular or custom hunting rifle on a regular basis. A heavy barreled bench gun or one designed for competition, sure, much better chances for consistency there.

    In my opinion, only 3 shots are necessary to establish a "group." Why? Because I don't need to be hunting at long range if I can't get it done in 3 or less shots (and preferably one shot), so any more than that on paper are a waste to me. If I can get three to go into one hole or close, or even 1/2 MOA, I'm not wasting my time or loads to see if any more can keep going through the same hole or close. I've done enough sub MOA paper shots in 3, 4, and 5 shot strings and established what my rifles and I can do so I got tired of shooting the extra ammo. I'm not out west where I can stretch things out every day. I have to pay for a membership at a range and haul stuff there, wait for a cease fire, get set up, etc., so my time is also considered.

    If you look at many riflebuilder's guarantees, they are almost always a 3 shot group an inch or less @ 100 yards. So I agree with this philosophy. No more than 3 shots needed to establish what a rifle can do, so long as it is repeatable. Which is what I do.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2012
  10. Derek M.

    Derek M. Well-Known Member

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    I will add that I do not subscribe to the 1" at 100 MEANS 10" at 1000. That has not been the case for me or anyone I know who has done it, on a repeatable basis.

    I've shot 2 one hole groups with my 7mag while in Wyoming from a bench. That's 6 shots. Backed up to 300 yards and got one group at 1.3" and another at 3.6" (another 6 shots). An hour later, shot at 500, 800, and 1000. My 2 three shot groups at 1000 yards were hardly impressive: one was about 14-15" and the other was around 9". That is not consistent.

    Put the target back at 100 yards and got a .254 with the last 4 shots I had.

    So many things can change from your muzzle to the target at 1000 yards, namely wind.

    I admire those who can get those tiny little groups at 1000 yards, meaning sub MOA. I haven't been able to do it on a regular basis. They are better shooters, probably have more trigger time, and likely have better built rifles than me, and it wouldn't surprise me if they know some reloading tricks that I have yet to figure out.
     
  11. Mike6158

    Mike6158 Well-Known Member

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    When I read posts of incredible accuracy and there are no pictures of the target (even though that "could" be staged) I take them with a grain of salt. Especially the 500 yard 1/4 moa from a factory rifle posts. Hell... I wouldn't believe my posts if there weren't pics :D

    I was just looking at a 300 yard target from a few days ago. I have an idea. New standards- (1) RLSS (Real Life Shooting Standard) and (2) ISS (Internet shooting standard.

    If I apply standard #2 to my 300 yard group from the other day then I get:

    (1) hole in a 1" square, another hole in a 1" square but different, and another hole in a 1" square only a lot different, like 6" away. Lastly, 3 holes in a two inch square. So naught from naught, carry the naught... drum roll...

    2/3 minute - 1/3 minute - 1/3 minute - 1/3 minute = -1/3 minute. Drop the minus sign (cause that would seem disingenuous) so 1/3 minute it is... not bad for a factory rifle with only a muzzle break and a jewel trigger added. :cool:

    Happy 2012 ya'll


    It's funny that you post this. I've been working on a load for my 7mag (168 gr Berger VLD's). I found a powder / bullet / primer combo that gives me about 1/2 a minute at 100 yards. (Side note- It never ceases to amaze me how a small powder volume change or type change can cause a group to close up. Fun stuff). Take it out to 300 yards and the group goes out to a minute or more. Granted, there was a 3-5 mph + gusts xwind from 200° but I thought that the groups should have been tighter than that. The rounds are a little lower velocity than you normally see for a 7mag, like 2800 fps and less, so maybe that's why the groups opened up?
     
  12. Derek M.

    Derek M. Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily.

    After numerous conversations with competition shooters, I've been told slowing the bullets down a bit has increased their accuracy. And then there's the article by Brad Sauve on his "sweetheart load" he finally found in his 308. He states:

    from this article:

    .308 Winchester Cartridge Guide

    That said, I've never found that generally slower velocities or faster velocities equates to overall better accuracy and precision.
     
  13. Mike6158

    Mike6158 Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad to read that. I have a .223 bolt gun that shoots hole on hole, sometimes hole in a hole at 100 yards, depending on shooter and range conditions, with a load that I worked up. I have yet to take it out past 100 but the load was between mid and max.

    I still need to work on the 7 mag load. I think the powder/ bullet combo is good, just need to tweak the charge. Honestly... the three that went into the 2" square were pretty nice all things considered. I've got a .338 Edge (Defensive Edge) that it is ridiculous how accurate it is. It's bedded, 30" Hart barrel, etc... I would love for my Sendero to shoot that well but I'm probably asking for too much from a gun that's not bedded or accurized... not to mention myself.
     
  14. Derek M.

    Derek M. Well-Known Member

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    My personal experience with factory Remington rifles is that the best groups I can get consistently is about 1-1.5" and that's it.

    I guess I'm brainwashed but I really don't want to put effort into loading for factory rifles anymore. And if I did, it would have to be a rifle that has a known better barrel from the factory, like a Savage, Sako, or Weatherby that comes with a Criterion bbl.

    Bedding is so very critical in my opinion. In my experience it made all the difference in the world with my old factory Ruger MK II M77. I had 2 things done to that rifle in 1989: trigger pull reduced to 3 pounds and "glass bedded." Nothing else. That alone changed things for the better.

    I later had a Hart barrel put on it and had the smith accurize the action. More difference!

    I've been told by competition shooters that the powder charge doesn't make quite as much difference as brass quality and concentricity and bullet seating depth. Even Tubb says in his video he made for Sierra years ago that as much as a 1 grain powder difference doesn't make a lot of change out to (600 yards) I think.

    I'm still quite anal though. I sort brass by weight with strict tolerance. I weigh EVERY powder charge, and I seat bullets one at a time with measuring overall length in an RCBS precision mic.

    I don't sort bullets using a comparator/bearing surface check. I just make sure that each one is loaded exactly the same distance off the lands and this has served me well. It required me lengthening the seater by about .07 each time and it is time consuming but it works.