Group size at what range?

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by mnhunter2, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. mnhunter2

    mnhunter2 Well-Known Member

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    I am shooting 168 gr bergers with 83.5 grs of h4831 sc in a 300 wtby and can get a nice 1.5" group at 100 yds but when I get out at 300 and 400 yds my groups get 6-8". Have been shooting with a tripod in a sitting postion.
     
  2. Long Time Long Ranger

    Long Time Long Ranger Well-Known Member

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    You are right at my accuracy load with that weight bullet in 300 wby. Usually the groups get smaller (moa speaking) as the range increases. Is the recoil causing the groups to spread because I have seen this many times out of the 300 wby with no brake. If the gun shoots that good at 100 yards I see no reason the gun would not shoot at 300-400. With more info some of the gurus on the site may can help.
     

  3. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Get off your sticks and your butt and get your belly in the dirt, your groups will shrink dramatically. I have heard many talk about shooting fine groups at long range from a shooting position. This is far more theory then fact for most that talk about it.

    To get precision shooting at long range you need to remove your bad effects on the rifle, that means a solid front rest, bipod or bags or mechanical rest and a solid rear bag. All you should be doing is offering a solid support to the butt of the stock and a finger to set the trigger off. Maybe some light control with the off hand to make recoil movement consistant.

    Generally groups fired this way will get smaller in moa size as the range increases to some degree but your seeing your effects on the rifle at longer ranges, not the rifles shooting ability.
     
  4. MTBULLET

    MTBULLET Well-Known Member

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    I use the 168 vld in a .300 RUM, loaded to 3370-3381 FPS, and find that the bullet starts to "lay down" at 200 yds and has "gone to sleep" at 300. out to 500 meters, the group size remains about 5/8-3/4" . I've never shot paper beyond 500 meters, just 9" gongs ( to 800 meters) and can stay on' em easily.
     
  5. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    Was there suppose to be a question here?
     
  6. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    What is your scope magnification?

    edge.
     
  7. freebird63

    freebird63 Well-Known Member

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    Am not trying to start any arguments here, but I use to believe that therory that a bullet goes to sleep until I read a book "Precision shooting at 1000 yards" by Dave Brennan. On page 224 he is ask a question about working up a 1000 yard load and in part of his answer he says "This stuff about a bullet going to sleep and finally settling down out there past 300 yards is so much bullhockey and makes me laugh".
    I truely believe some guns just will not shoot some bullets. My sendero won't shoot berger bullets, the only bullets it seems to like are accubonds and 208 A-Max bullets. But I have not shot out to 1000 yards yet either. Just 500 yards.
     
  8. MTBULLET

    MTBULLET Well-Known Member

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    I love it when and editor/writer/pundit laughs !
     
  9. mnhunter2

    mnhunter2 Well-Known Member

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    Edge, I am shooting a swaroski 4-12 with a rail mount, I cleaned the barrel and my groups tightened up. How many shots between cleanings or do you clean the bore between each shooting session? This gun is a stainless model and it seems to heat up quite fast, after 3-4 rounds would the heat be causing some of the group growth?
     
  10. freebird63

    freebird63 Well-Known Member

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    I figure he must have some clue as he is a benchrest shooter and has probably shot more rounds down the tube then many of us can only imagine.
     
  11. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Freebird63,

    Just for the sake of conversation, how do you explain that a rifle can shoot 1/2 moa groups at 100 yards, 1/3 moa groups at 300 yards and 1/5 moa groups at 500 yards?

    To put that into actual inches. This particular rifle averaged 0.7" to 0.8" ctc three shot groups at 100 yards. Shot between 0.9" and 1.1" groups at 300 yards and has shot SEVERAL sub 1" ctc three shot groups at 500 yards.

    I have seen this with many rifles, also, the longer the bullet, the faster the twist, the faster the bullet is driven, the more dramatic this group size reduction can be when measured in MOA.

    Do not care what you call it, it happens, perhaps its being mislabeled but it certainly is real and it certainly happens.

    Now with low intensity, relatively short bullets at moderate speeds in conventional twist rates, it is not nearly as dramatic or measurable.

    This is really a moot point, until the rifle in question is properly tested from a solid shooting position, we can not begin to say why the groups are increasing in size. Shooting from a sitting position is no way to find the accuracy potential of a rifle. Great for field practice but not for evaluating a loads consistancy or a rifles accuracy potential.
     
  12. freebird63

    freebird63 Well-Known Member

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    Like I had said Kirby I didn't want to start any arguments here, just reporting what a benchrest shooter has come up with. I know my sendero will shoot great groups at 100 yards,yes even bergers, but when I move out beyond that my groups go to hell. Nothing I did would bring them closer. I have put more rounds through my sendero then I care to mention. I have a funny feeling come next hunting season I will have had to had it worked into a 338 because the barrel will be shot out. Not every gun shoots every bullet. My wifes gun loves 150gr accubonds, but does not like barnes or bergers.
    Its also just like I have read that the 168 bergers are not the most reliable long range bullet "just stuff I have read". Right now everyone is jumping on the berger bandwagon, whether they have heard it by word of mouth of watched best of the west or the byond belief DVD's. Bergers are not going to shoot in every gun. My gunsmith just recently found out that the bergers would not fly past 500 yards with his custom 300RUM, so he switched to barnes. Keep an open mind to other bullets and maybe other powders and or primers.
     
  13. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    I have never been on the Berger Band wagon by any means. In fact all of my wildcats do nothing but eat them up and tear them apart. I have never put one into a big game animal.

    I do not think anyone has every said a rifle will shoot every bullet. All I am saying is that if you get 3/4 moa or better groups, I would check that load at longer ranges before passing on it thinking you will get much better performance with a tighter 100 yard group load.

    What bullet and chambering are you shooting in the sendero?

    Back to my original comments, this rifle that is in question on the original post needs to be evaluated properly from a solid bench shooting position if its accuracy potential is every to be realized. That was my original point and still stands. Shooting from a sitting position is not the position to evaluate a rifle or loads consistancy or accuracy potential at any range.
     
  14. freebird63

    freebird63 Well-Known Member

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    Kirby I know you build awesome guns, why do you think I contacted you first about rebarreling my sendero when I feel the barrel is gone. You know your stuff. I find that if I look at what everyone is saying and then try some of it for myself then I can make my own decisions. I am new to this long range stuff my self.