Hammer bullet for short range bear hunting

[kevin0270]

I would use the 130 grain shock hammers!! That bullet has worked well for me!! Good luck

 

[nralifer]

Your first generation looks better than the second generation. This will lead to increased failures to open, poor straight line penetration, bone deflection, and tumbling after impact. Broaching the hard copper won't help these things.

How do you know. You have never hunted extensively with our bullets, if ever. Your criticisms are pure conjecture with no data to back them up. The BD2s have killed Elk as far as 1500+ yards with single shot kills. I really don't want to get into a discussion about the pros and cons of each of our bullets. Will let the customers decide what they want.

 

[memtb]

How do you know. You have never hunted extensively with our bullets, if ever. Your criticisms are pure conjecture with no data to back them up. The BD2s have killed Elk as far as 1500+ yards with single shot kills. I really don't want to get into a discussion about the pros and cons of each of our bullets. Will let the customers decide what they want.

I'll say, "Good Luck to both of you"!

Hunters/shooters need more good bullets to choose from…..especially so, with the shortages. As nralifer stated, " let the customers decide"! memtb

 

[DoneNOut]

I'll say, "Good Luck to both of you"!

Hunters/shooters need more good bullets to choose from…..especially so, with the shortages. As nralifer stated, " let the customers decide"! memtb

I think things would go better in the threads if folks would stick to the relevance of the OP criteria. If a poster asks about selecting variation of brand X, then stay with brand X suggestions.

Brand Y slipping and falling into a brand X thread is bad form.

 

[nralifer]

I think things would go better in the threads if folks would stick to the relevance of the OP criteria. If a poster asks about selecting variation of brand X, then stay with brand X suggestions.

Brand Y slipping and falling into a brand X thread is bad form.

Noted.

 

[Bang4theBuck]

Just don't worry about it. Great bear.

For the op, your shot will generally be 25ft to 50ft away from most bears I've seen killed there. All sizes and calibers used from 22 LR behind the ear to 45-70.

Where in Saskatchewan?

2 hours northeast from saskatoon

 

[RockyMtnMT]

How do you know. You have never hunted extensively with our bullets, if ever. Your criticisms are pure conjecture with no data to back them up. The BD2s have killed Elk as far as 1500+ yards with single shot kills. I really don't want to get into a discussion about the pros and cons of each of our bullets. Will let the customers decide what they want.

You posted pics of your bullets after impact. I have impact tested enough bullets, particularly monos of varying alloys of copper, to have a very good understanding of how they work. I have not hunted with your bullet nor will I. Likewise I suspect you will not hunt with mine. I have hunted with several other monos and our own, made with different alloys than we now use. We figured out how to overcome the terminal performance weaknesses that they all had. I suspect that if terminal performance is important to you, you will also figure out how to make it better. If bc is your most important emphasis, then maybe good enough is all you need. I wish you luck.

 

[nralifer]

You posted pics of your bullets after impact. I have impact tested enough bullets, particularly monos of varying alloys of copper, to have a very good understanding of how they work. I have not hunted with your bullet nor will I. Likewise I suspect you will not hunt with mine. I have hunted with several other monos and our own, made with different alloys than we now use. We figured out how to overcome the terminal performance weaknesses that they all had. I suspect that if terminal performance is important to you, you will also figure out how to make it better. If bc is your most important emphasis, then maybe good enough is all you need. I wish you luck.

What terminal performance weaknesses did you notice with Barnes? For us it was a low BC limiting long range effectiveness and short range expansion reliability on their TTSX. We addressed both those issues by finding their root cause and designing around that. I was happy with how lethal they were when functioning as advertised, causing a rapid kill without much meat damage. Bullets that blow up on impact is not desirable in our book. We actually were surprised how penetrating our bullets are even at 600 + yds. Since then we have received multiple accounts ot Texas heart shots at relatively close range where the animal was fully penetrated and dropped right there. So we are very comfortable with the design and will match it up against anybody else's. Gel testing is only a first approximation of an animal impact, but it was good enough for us to understand the mechanics of bullet expansion. We also understand that the petaling takes advantage of the rotational energy of the bullet, which is only achieved consistently with moderately ductile materials.

 

[RockyMtnUT]

What terminal performance weaknesses did you notice with Barnes? For us it was a low BC limiting long range effectiveness and short range expansion reliability on their TTSX. We addressed both those issues by finding their root cause and designing around that. I was happy with how lethal they were when functioning as advertised, causing a rapid kill without much meat damage. Bullets that blow up on impact is not desirable in our book. We actually were surprised how penetrating our bullets are even at 600 + yds. Since then we have received multiple accounts ot Texas heart shots at relatively close range where the animal was fully penetrated and dropped right there. So we are very comfortable with the design and will match it up against anybody else's. Gel testing is only a first approximation of an animal impact, but it was good enough for us to understand the mechanics of bullet expansion. We also understand that the petaling takes advantage of the rotational energy of the bullet, which is only achieved consistently with moderately ductile materials.

Just don't.

 

[nralifer]

Just don't.

Quite true. Time to take a shower

 

[RockyMtnMT]

What terminal performance weaknesses did you notice with Barnes? For us it was a low BC limiting long range effectiveness and short range expansion reliability on their TTSX. We addressed both those issues by finding their root cause and designing around that. I was happy with how lethal they were when functioning as advertised, causing a rapid kill without much meat damage. Bullets that blow up on impact is not desirable in our book. We actually were surprised how penetrating our bullets are even at 600 + yds. Since then we have received multiple accounts ot Texas heart shots at relatively close range where the animal was fully penetrated and dropped right there. So we are very comfortable with the design and will match it up against anybody else's. Gel testing is only a first approximation of an animal impact, but it was good enough for us to understand the mechanics of bullet expansion. We also understand that the petaling takes advantage of the rotational energy of the bullet, which is only achieved consistently with moderately ductile materials.

At first I was going to let you run off with @300prc but thought maybe you were actually interested in what I have to say. First off don't get fooled into thinking that @300prc and his little group are your friends. They don't like your product or what you are doing. They just hate me and are using you to try and get to me. To them you are just another worthless copper bullet maker.

The Barnes are too hard and suffer with low velocity impacts. They don't shed weight so they don't create the shock upon impact that stuns or shuts down animals quickly. By maintaining the petals on the open nose they they make a rounded frontal area that creates less permanent wound. Also they slow down too rapidly also causing less permanent wound. Looks pretty for advertising photos though. Between the hardness and the attached petals they become susceptible to deflection and tumbling. Hard copper is not a good thing. Even if it is scored to aid it in opening. Very soft copper will not easily deflect off bone even on hard angling shots.

Again, best of luck.

 

[RockyMtnUT]

At first I was going to let you run off with @300prc but thought maybe you were actually interested in what I have to say. First off don't get fooled into thinking that @300prc and his little group are your friends. They don't like your product or what you are doing. They just hate me and are using you to try and get to me. To them you are just another worthless copper bullet maker.

The Barnes are too hard and suffer with low velocity impacts. They don't shed weight so they don't create the shock upon impact that stuns or shuts down animals quickly. By maintaining the petals on the open nose they they make a rounded frontal area that creates less permanent wound. Also they slow down too rapidly also causing less permanent wound. Looks pretty for advertising photos though. Between the hardness and the attached petals they become susceptible to deflection and tumbling. Hard copper is not a good thing. Even if it is scored to aid it in opening. Very soft copper will not easily deflect off bone even on hard angling shots.

Again, best of luck.

Professional as always Steven. Enjoy your evening.

 

[nralifer]

I'm well aware of the divide that exists with copper lovers and haters. Copper is metallurgically complex. It is not easy to machine, but the C110 at least, has a ductility which we like and use. I have extensive experience with lead core bullets and as hunting bullets they leave much to be desired. Accuracy, though, is very good, but bullet behavior after impact is inconsistent. Penetration is also inferior limiting the impact angles that one can take on animals. I have been impressed with the penetrating ability of all copper bullets including Barnes, but when they don't expand, they don't kill quickly even when placed properly. The hard core lead fans may not change, but many will. My advise to all copper bullet manufacturers is press on. It's a huge market with room for everyone. We should have fun doing what we do.

 

[fordy]

Gday
Looks like this thread got derailed so before I completely derail it I'd suggest the 137hh with the scape goat I have no experiences with bears so mine is based off a good sample of various other critters & help from the ones on your side of the ditch who explained bears for me but really listen to the ones who know their stuff on these critters yep the good ones

Leads me to this derail @nrailer one thing I've learnt is Steve's character & as much as he is hated by some for their own pitiful reasons
The truth is his willingness to help & his availability to everyone
The biggest thing I've seen is his willingness to pay it forward & a lot may not know how he's been helped by other bullet makers in how to do things better or @ minimum another way
Yes he was helped & helps others
Now your copper sir I won't get into that but if you re read Steve's comments above I'd say that he has used your copper in his search of what he uses today
So I see this post of yours

I'm well aware of the divide that exists with copper lovers and haters. Copper is metallurgically complex. It is not easy to machine, but the C110 at least, has a ductility which we like and use. I have extensive experience with lead core bullets and as hunting bullets they leave much to be desired. Accuracy, though, is very good, but bullet behavior after impact is inconsistent. Penetration is also inferior limiting the impact angles that one can take on animals. I have been impressed with the penetrating ability of all copper bullets including Barnes, but when they don't expand, they don't kill quickly even when placed properly. The hard core lead fans may not change, but many will. My advise to all copper bullet manufacturers is press on. It's a huge market with room for everyone. We should have fun doing what we do.

So is this a position you can have a chat with Steve & see what ea has learnt & im sure he will pay it forward & hope you would do the same in return that way we all win ( I'm not saying ea divulge inner design or secrets just broadly )

All I would suggest is step back clear your head & look @ the big picture
That I hold hope you will do but some on here are beyond help & look forward to reading their attempts to deflect

Op sorry for derail
Just trying to smooth over & get a better outcome for us & the critter
Cheers