For those of you that use a NECO concentricity gauge or similar style...

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by shortpants, Dec 3, 2013.

  1. shortpants

    shortpants Well-Known Member

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    I'm in the market for a concentricity gauge. I am brand new to reloading so it's hard for me to see what makes a particular piece of equipment better than the next. After researching it seems enough of you recommend the NECO that I am thinking of buying it. There are some that allow you to correct a cartridge with to much runout right there on the concentricity gauge but not the NECO. It seems that would be very convenient so if you use a NECO or similar product how do you correct runout? Is the Hornady model junk? Obviously some of you think the NECO is more accurate, I'm already sold on that but just have no experience so I don't know how I would correct runout if I choose to buy the NECO??? Thanks for helping a newbie!
     
  2. tbrice23

    tbrice23 Well-Known Member

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    I went with the hornady because I wanted the ability to straighten loaded rounds.
    My chrono tells me that if i straighten one that is more than .004 runnout my ES is lower on that round. Therefore neck tention is compromised.
    What I have learned is that if I have more than .003 runnout stop and identify and fix the problem rather than straighten.
    That being said I think there are probably more precise gauges (neco) that I could have bought.
     

  3. BrentM

    BrentM Well-Known Member

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    I have the Hornady as well. I found that if I turn my case while pressing in a bullet the bullet alignment is really good and the use of the concentricity guage is minimal if at all. Insert bullet in neck, start pressing bullet into neck, release pressure, turn 1/4 to 1/3, press bullet in some more, repeat until fully seated. It only takes a little bit more time, but the process had given me better overall results.
     
  4. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    What you really need is a runout gage(V-block type), so that you can work on making straight ammo and know when it actually is.
    The difference between concentricity and total indicated runout(TIR) is confusing to most, including makers of gages(The NECO is NOT a concentricity gage).
    I prefer Sinclair's gage(also not a concentricity gage):SINCLAIR CONCENTRICITY GAUGE | Sinclair Intl
    When you read low runout off the Sinclair, you actually have straight ammo, and that's the best you will ever do.
     
  5. shortpants

    shortpants Well-Known Member

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    Again I'm new to reloading so sorry for the dumb questions.
    When you say stop and fix the problem, can you give me an example on a likely cause and how you would fix it. I figure everyone is going to experience runout from time to time but without having a gauge like the Hornady I'm not sure how one would go about fixing it. If the Hornady gauge is not very accurate however it would be a waste of time and money.
     
  6. shortpants

    shortpants Well-Known Member

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    The turning method I've read and heard about. Seems logical, thanks for mentioning it!
     
  7. shortpants

    shortpants Well-Known Member

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    I've done some reading on the search menu and understand what your saying. I believe it might have been you (could be wrong) that mentioned it takes 2 measurement opposite of one another to give true concintricity readings. While that may be true I just want to produce the most accurate ammo I can and do it consistently. I however do not have the brainpower to make my own reloading equipment so I'm stuck choosing from what is commercially available. I have been eyeing the Sinclair model as well so it's nice to hear a good review on it. I'm leaning on it or the NECO simply due to the positive feedback I've heard about them. I however still need to hear someone explain to me how one would fix runout if they are using one of those 2 or similar designed gauges??? Thanks for the feedback guys!!!
     
  8. BrentM

    BrentM Well-Known Member

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    Me too. I think a high end bullet seating die would help. I just turn and seat because I don't have a 200.00 die. LOL
     
  9. tbrice23

    tbrice23 Well-Known Member

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    Fixing the problem could be as simple as seating slower or faster while rotating the case. I find different brass / bullets give lower runnout by seating by their own method of rotating/seating incraments (trial and error). Sound like voodoo but woks for me.
    Even indexing your seating die in different positions sometimes helps.
    Basically even a cheap runnout gauge can at least gives you an idea of how your doing.
    And realize that lubing consistently when full or partial length sizing matters.
    Also I find using mica as a dry lube is beneficial in seating straight.
     
  10. shortpants

    shortpants Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure there is probably a lot of voodoo in reloading. Those sound like great ways to help lessen the chance of excess runout. My question is if your holding a case in your hand that has to much runout how do you fix that particular case? Can you stick it back in the seating die and rotate it as you cam down on it after the fact that you have already seated this particular cartridge and discovered to much runout? Do you put it in your teeth and bend? Ok now I'm just trying to be funny:)
     
  11. BrentM

    BrentM Well-Known Member

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    The Hornady Guage has a plunger on a thread bolt that presses the bullet the direction you need it to go. It takes a little bit of practice, not a lot, and you can put a bullet at .001 easily. It simply requires you to spin the bolt with your fingers the correct direction and amount, check, repeat etc.

    If you get 1 and need help call me. It is pretty easy. Could even make a super quick vid or Skype you.
     
  12. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    You can't fix runout by bending necks, and it's a bad idea to do this IMO.
    The only way to fix runout is fireforming/refireforming. A die cannot do it.

    The primary cause of runout is thickness variance of a case.
    The initiator of runout is sizing, and misaligned sizing can also directly cause runout of course.
    A minor contributor is misaligned seating.
    To make straight ammo you need to address the actual source/cause of loaded runout.
    Culling cases by thickness variance, neck turning, minimal sizing and seating with inline dies, etc.

    Once you've made crooked ammo, you can adjust only eccentricity of it, possibly with a cost of increasing runout further(neck bending). But concentric ammo that is crooked won't chamber and fire the same as straight ammo. It's not the same thing.
    You can make it straighter by firing it in your chamber, and then try again to size & load it straight as measured on a runout gage.
    Work out the bugs a couple times & you'll get real good at it across the board.

    The NECO is an excellent gage if you're set on it. I just prefer Sinclair, and I also prefer their neck turning system, and neck thickness gages, yadda, yadda. I spend a bunch there I guess...
     
  13. BrentM

    BrentM Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure the Hornady Guage was intended to do much with the case neck. It contacts the bullet and only the bullet for proper alignment measurement. The bullet can be moved slightly, generally around .003 to .005 to get to .002 or less.

    If you wish to put the guage on the neck that is fine, but it is not designed to do that in my opinion. I have never had a piece of Lapau brass, measured at the neck, be out of whack enough to worry about. However, bullets don't always seat straight with the cheaper dies.

    I think we all talking about different things here. Bullet seating and neck alignment vs straight cases. I am only refering to Bullet seating and the alignment of the bullet in the neck of the case. The shallower a bullet is seated the greater the chance of bullet alignment issues. The Hornady guage does a VERY GOOD job at measuring this variance and the dial indicator quality is quite nice. IMO, it works as it should and gives you feedback needed to address any issues with cases or bullet alignment. It works well enough to give me 4 rifles so far all shooting under .3 MOA on factory actions, stocks, and barrels. Looking forward to a custom barrel soon. I want bugholes. : )
     
  14. tbrice23

    tbrice23 Well-Known Member

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    I shoot long heavy bullets mostly so they occupy all of the neck and then some. Thats where correcting bullet runnout more than .004 effects my neck tension/velocity.
    On those rounds to correct .004 I usually had to move the dial indicator more than .015 to get it straight.
    If I only have to move the indicator .005 or less to correct .003 or less runnout its deemed a keeper otherwise the ones with more than .003 runnout gets deemed fowlers.