Energy requirements?

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by Glock119, Dec 8, 2004.

  1. Glock119

    Glock119 Well-Known Member

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    I see people post taking deer, caibou, elk ect at ranges out to and over 800yds.

    What kind of energy requirements (minimums) are needed to kill a deer, elk, caribou, or moose?

    Is there a general guideline or thought on this?

    I see post with more mathematical equations than I can keep up with so I thought there must be some type of guidelines used to assure a clean kill at those distances.

    Thanks for any input, just curious as to what other feel is the minimum to take such animals.
     
  2. ewallace

    ewallace Well-Known Member

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    Elk would be around 1000 fpe
    Crow Mag
     

  3. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    If you held the muzzle of a 1911 in 45ACP loaded with 230gr FMJ ammo against the rib cage of any of these animals and fired, would it cause a lethal wound that would also put the animal down quickly? I hope you said yes. The amount of ft/lbs is around 400 which is pretty small by conventional hunting standards.

    Energy rated in ft/lbs is not a good indicator of killing power. That debate has raged for decades.

    What I look for is impact vel vs the expansion characteristics of the bullet used.

    I want the impact vel to be high enough so that I get reliable bullet expansion of at least 1.25 cal (1.5 is prefered) WITH penetration greater then the distance through the animal's body to reach the vitals. This will create a large enough permanent wound channel to cause a quick death for the game.

    I use 6.5 cal and larger, with the heaviest for cal bullets for my LR shooting and feel any accurate conventionally built hunting or match bullet will work IF impact vel is high enough to cause that level of expansion/penetration.

    The ft/lbs generated on my calculator really don't tell the tale.

    To simplify, bullets like Matchkings, SST, and Ballistic tips should hit going at least 1400fps. Amax and lightly built match bullets might even get down to 1200fps.

    Heavy large bore cast bullets can drive through large game with impact velocities under 1000fps. Impact energy is again low but do you really want to try and catch a 500gr 45 cal lead slug coming at you at 950fps? We know this has dispatched many a buffalo which are definitely big game.

    Expansion is zero but the cal is large enough, expansion is not necessary.

    So ask yourself the question of what game do I want to hunt, at what range? What cal and bullet weight am I planning on using (bigger is definitely better in this game)? What type of bullet am I going to choose? What will the retained velocity be at the furthest range I want to shoot at? How much in game penetration am I likely to get?

    With that info, you can predict the maximum effective range of your set up for the game involved. Also, will tell you the type of shot you can and cannot take.

    Now you just have to get out there and practise so that you can actually hit at the range you want and go hunting.

    Jerry
     
  4. Len Backus

    Len Backus Administrator Staff Member

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    Jerry, you write so well and sometimes you just make too much sense for the rest of us! Good job. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
     
  5. Charles A

    Charles A Well-Known Member

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    VERY well written. You are 100% spot on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  6. Glock119

    Glock119 Well-Known Member

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    Jerry thanks for the post and by the response from Len and Charles they agree. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Like Cow Mag I was taught to plan on the 900-1000 ft/pds of energy needed to harvest game cleanly.

    Yet my years of shooting and hunting have said different. I am at a point in the game where I think its somehow a combination of the two energy & velocity is needed.

    Heres my thoughts and experiences. Ive noticed over the years that if I shoot the average whitetail (which in our area averages 130#) at close range 20-75yds that it don't much matter what cal (30-06, 270, 7 mm, 300 wthy mag) or grain bullet I use it just passes through and some tracking of the amimal is to follow.

    Yet if I shoot that same caliber at the same deer but just at a further range of 200-300yds that it normally ends up dumping the thing right there.

    The only explanation I have been able to come up with on my own is that the farther ranges reduce the speeds (velocity) of the bullet allowing the bullets energy to create havoc on the bodys organs.

    Thus the reason for the question. I figured that with all that goes into getting the bullet to the 800-1k range that maybe there was formula that those of you with that kind of real life experience could pass on.

    I did find (and I dont mean it in a bad way) your comment, "Now you just have to get out there and practise so that you can actually hit at the range you want and go hunting."

    I live in Vestal, NY a yuppie little town surrounded buy other small towns and cities with the largest being Binghamton, NY.

    Basically you can only use shotguns for big game hunting in the lower half of NY which is where I live.If you want to use a rifle you need to go to the east of the state or to the north.

    Around here a long range shot is considered 20-50yrds /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

    In fact I end up shooting father with my bow than with my guns. Go figure.

    The only areas around here to shoot is at the local sportsman's clubs where I teach the NYS Hunters Safety Education Program. Their longest shooting lanes are 200yrds.

    To shoot any further I go up north to a friends fathers farm yet 400yd shots are slim pickins.

    I would give my right arm to shoot at 800-1k yrds or better. I don't know about you but at age 40 not much really impresses me, yet when I see you guys posting shooting deer at 800yds and caribou at a mile I think thats Very Impressive and makes me very envious.

    Although I have always been interested in such long range shooting I have never really had the opportunity to do it. Just speaking of it at most places to most people will get ya called an idiot.

    I am glad to see such a place where such talent and experience is share to those of use wishing to do the same. I am, and I am sure I can speak for most others that have not yet done that kind of shooting, thankful to those of you who are willing to share your experiences, thoughts and ideas both good and bad with us. Thanks, Ben /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     
  7. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    Charles and Len, thanks for your kind comments. Appreciated.

    Shadowman, that is the biggest flaw in this style of shooting/hunting. Many want to but fewer actually can. Without practise, all the ballistics programs, wind meters, fancy reticles, gizmos gadgets don't mean spit.

    There simply is no way for any program to account for all the variables that happen to make that shot. Plus, you still got to hold them and squeeze them.

    Shooting at 200yds, does very little to prepare you for 800yds.

    That's too bad about where you live. Hopefully, you will get a chance to travel for a shooting holiday. Maybe a PD hunt out west will give you some trigger time at extended ranges.

    Right now I am so blessed because I live in an area where shooting for miles is possible. One of the spots I go to allows me to plink all the way to 1000m. Close enough I can get out during lunch.

    Enjoy the knowledge that is on this board. You will find that most here respect and understand the responsibility of launching lead at something 1/2 a mile away. I hope that this info can be offered to others so that the magazine wannabe with the newest super gear won't go out and wound game unnecessarily. Whether that's at 100yds or 1000yds.

    Jerry
     
  8. Glock119

    Glock119 Well-Known Member

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    I fully agree. As an Instructor we teach all our students to stay well within their abilities and that of their equipment.

    We always love to get those in class with the 3" mag slug guns, high end scopes stating how they can shoot 150-200 yds with it. then when we get to the range and you have them take 3 shots at their longest distance they feel they can hit and three shots at 20-30yds which is more realistic of what is going to happen in the field the targets speak volumes to the class and to the individual.

    Its at that point the "lights" come on and you know you just got through to them.

    For me LR shooting means learning the skills, techniques and equipment needed to make such shots. My drive and motivation is to learn and have the ability someday to make such shots. I could care less if I were to never shoot at game at that range, but rather to know I possess the ability would be as rewarding. I think just being able to ding a piece of steel at that distance would be just as rewarding. (and one heck of a hoot) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    Its got to give you folks a sense of accomplishment to know that you posses a skill many want and few can accomplish.
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Shadowman, I live in Orange County NY, about 1 hr from NYC. I hunt the farm down the road in a semi-subarban area and I can use my rifle. When I go upstate to Schoharie, Herkimer, and Otsego counties where I'm on 500+ acre properties I have to use my shotgun? These are rural areas....Ridiculous!

    There is talk of lifting the shotgun only rules but the liberals in this state will never pass the bill. So my longest range weapon is my muzzleloader.

    Funny thing is I have a great spot on this farm about 1 mile from my house where I can safely shoot about 400 yards, but it gets so much pressure that I hardly ever see any game.
     
  10. Glock119

    Glock119 Well-Known Member

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    Johnny, I know right where ya live. Use to live in Middletown and worked as restaurant manager of the travel center down there years ago.

    Between the politicians and the yuppies NY is getting worse.
     
  11. brian b

    brian b Well-Known Member

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    Shadowman,
    I have a different problem than yours, You have a hard time finding a place to shoot long range and I have never even shot a slug gun ,you need to come west to hunt and I would love to come east and check things out
    B
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Shadowman, I'm going upstate to schoharie county next week end for some Muzzleloader hunting. It's pretty piss poor over here. Too much pressure.
     
  13. Glock119

    Glock119 Well-Known Member

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    Brain, I can't believe you have never fired a slug gun. Trust me if we were to swap places i would have the better end of the deal by a "long shot".(no pun intended)

    If you want to know what its like all you have to do is remove that soft cushy recoil pad from the end of one of your magnum rifles. And take a few shots with just a tee on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Maybe not that bad but pretty darn close. Just ask my 20 yr old son who shot my friends browning which has a nice steel but plate.

    One shot put a beautiful tattoo of the browning logo on his shoulder and left it brown for a few days.(LOLOL) true story

    If ya ever make it to NY i'll be more than happy to take ya to the range. Its short in lenght but we'll still have a blast.
     
  14. Glock119

    Glock119 Well-Known Member

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    John, its been a strange yr around here. I am a bow tech at one of the local shops at night and have had the chance to talk with hundereds of hunters from all over and they all seem to say the same thing.

    They are just not as abundant as they were last year. Last yr i seen over a dozen 8 and bigger this year nothing over 6 except the 8 my daughter got but most just spikes. Good luck.