Does energy = lethality?

[necktweaker]

For those interested, I found the following information on the Hornady website about the ELDX Terminal Performance.

Unless I am misunderstanding the article, it states that the ELDX bullets "provide deep penetration and reliable expansion" for velocities as low as 1,600 fps. So that would theoretically mean that the bullet would function as designed out to around 900 yards for the load used in my Shooters Calculator link.

I'm not claiming that would be an either ethical or unethical shot (or one that would drop an elk), just stating the information that I found on their website.

 

[HARPERC]

...,,I'm not claiming that would be an either ethical or unethical shot (or one that would drop an elk), just stating the information that I found on their website........

Good post.

 

[bigngreen]

I acknowledg these things, been using them for more years than some of the posters on here been alive. But that doesn't make a good shot out of anyone. Nor does it make an Elk cartridge out of a groundhog cartridge. I just don't believe MOST , say 99.4% of shooters out there could hit anything at 800 yds. let alone the kill area on an Elk. To those who can, great. I'm just concerned that a lot of people going out there, shooting beyond their capabilities, and even then, not using a round that will do the trick, say like a 340 Wby or something. An 06 not really a long range round, so how's a 6.5C or 260 Rem. one. Just concerned about people using a capable round. From what I'm reading, lots of folks don't really know what their round will do at these ranges. How may Elk you killed at extended ranges? Like I said, less about shooting at that range than being able to do so competently, and "using enough gun".

I think many of us are trying to get across that after a LOT of elk we see patterns, the pattern is clean kills with chambering a guy shoots well, if a 6.5 CM is what a guy hammers with and shoots a lot then go with it and learn your capability with it in given conditions, forcing a chambering a guy isn't comfortable with leads to poor shot placement which leads to wrecks, lets focus on what it takes to put quality shots in the boiler room first THEN add horsepower and range.
Instead of focusing on the what if and reacting to it with way to much rifle for the shooter lets focus on rifles that a guy will put range time on and develop muscle memory with and put that first shot dead on. Especially talking elk very few guys can regularly hit a moving elk, if they botch their first round I've never seen someone pull it together and pile drive one, and every shot after the first one just kicks the after burners on that much more. The sweet spot for the most lethal elk killing a guy will do is in that 600-800 yard range, if you've done your work they are at ease and have no idea your there, you have enough time to pull it together and do a couple dry fires then wait for that one shot your looking for, they take the hits sooo much harder that up close too and you have way more opportunities at those ranges to get a quality second shot if needed.
In our group I have never seen an elk not killed clean on the first round out beyond 1000 yards, I have watched many guys shooting way beyond their capability and they aren't even putting round close to an elk, I know it's cool to blame long range hunting for bad stuff but those same guys who just lob rounds at elk have been the same guys all along but back in the day they were just slob hunters now you see guys like that clown Randy the Real Gunsmith trying to bolster his view point by lumping the groups of guys who never did and never will do the work to make clean one shot kills with guys who strive for clean one shot kills but just do it at a range they can't wrap their minds around, I find that very frustrating!!

 

[VLD Pilot]

I think many of us are trying to get across that after a LOT of elk we see patterns, the pattern is clean kills with chambering a guy shoots well, if a 6.5 CM is what a guy hammers with and shoots a lot then go with it and learn your capability with it in given conditions, forcing a chambering a guy isn't comfortable with leads to poor shot placement which leads to wrecks, lets focus on what it takes to put quality shots in the boiler room first THEN add horsepower and range.
Instead of focusing on the what if and reacting to it with way to much rifle for the shooter lets focus on rifles that a guy will put range time on and develop muscle memory with and put that first shot dead on. Especially talking elk very few guys can regularly hit a moving elk, if they botch their first round I've never seen someone pull it together and pile drive one, and every shot after the first one just kicks the after burners on that much more. The sweet spot for the most lethal elk killing a guy will do is in that 600-800 yard range, if you've done your work they are at ease and have no idea your there, you have enough time to pull it together and do a couple dry fires then wait for that one shot your looking for, they take the hits sooo much harder that up close too and you have way more opportunities at those ranges to get a quality second shot if needed.
In our group I have never seen an elk not killed clean on the first round out beyond 1000 yards, I have watched many guys shooting way beyond their capability and they aren't even putting round close to an elk, I know it's cool to blame long range hunting for bad stuff but those same guys who just lob rounds at elk have been the same guys all along but back in the day they were just slob hunters now you see guys like that clown Randy the Real Gunsmith trying to bolster his view point by lumping the groups of guys who never did and never will do the work to make clean one shot kills with guys who strive for clean one shot kills but just do it at a range they can't wrap their minds around, I find that very frustrating!!

Only takes one bad apple in the sportsman circle to have the entire group labeled by anti hunters as unethical butchers. There's always going to be that guy that watches a long range hunting video or program and thinks he can make that shot if the guys on that show can do it. It's like that guy that buys a new rifle and the dealer bore sights it and says "it will hit a 10" plate but sight it in before you hunt with it". Life happens and he thinks a 10" group will be fine to hunt deer with. Selling firearms years ago, believe me, I had several customers that did that exact thing. I heard the never ending stories and results of it after the hunt was over. Wounded deer, deer shot up because first shots didn't stop the animal or misses on numerous animals. These are the ambassadors of future sportsman. Pretty ugly. Fortunately, they are the exception and not the rule.

 

[djm670]

Is the .308 Win sufficient for elk at shorter ranges? If I end up moving, it would be to an area that has elk and mule deer, so I would hate to not be able to hunt the main species due to a poor purchase decision.



Based on this requirement, it looks like both 6.5 Creedmoor and .308 Win would be ok out to 450ish yards. But I think I need to contact the bullet manufacturer.

Sorry I am late to the post, but a 6.5 Creedmoor is more than adequate for Elk out to 500 yards.. and a bit longer depending on the shooter, his skills, ammunition and competance. It is a cartridge that is very easy to shoot well. And if you don't reload, there is a lot of different quality ammunition available.

Like FIGJAM I grew up with elk in the hayfield across from the house in Montana. Most of the elk I have shot were shot with a .25-06 and a few with a 6 mm remington as well as a couple with a .270 and a .30-06 (largest caliber rifle I own with the exception of a couple of lever action - .356 and a .45-70 Winchesters).

So I don't agree with the concept that a .300 Win Mag is the minimum for elk; but I can understand why some people think that to be the case. Were it me, making that decision, I would probably opt for a 6.5 PRC.

When you can consistantly hit woodchucks at 500 to 800 yards with your elk rifle (whatever the caliber you choose) then you can probably legitimately shoot at elk at those ranges.

 

[Moose4Me]

I think many of us are trying to get across that after a LOT of elk we see patterns, the pattern is clean kills with chambering a guy shoots well, if a 6.5 CM is what a guy hammers with and shoots a lot then go with it and learn your capability with it in given conditions, forcing a chambering a guy isn't comfortable with leads to poor shot placement which leads to wrecks, lets focus on what it takes to put quality shots in the boiler room first THEN add horsepower and range.
Instead of focusing on the what if and reacting to it with way to much rifle for the shooter lets focus on rifles that a guy will put range time on and develop muscle memory with and put that first shot dead on. Especially talking elk very few guys can regularly hit a moving elk, if they botch their first round I've never seen someone pull it together and pile drive one, and every shot after the first one just kicks the after burners on that much more. The sweet spot for the most lethal elk killing a guy will do is in that 600-800 yard range, if you've done your work they are at ease and have no idea your there, you have enough time to pull it together and do a couple dry fires then wait for that one shot your looking for, they take the hits sooo much harder that up close too and you have way more opportunities at those ranges to get a quality second shot if needed.
In our group I have never seen an elk not killed clean on the first round out beyond 1000 yards, I have watched many guys shooting way beyond their capability and they aren't even putting round close to an elk, I know it's cool to blame long range hunting for bad stuff but those same guys who just lob rounds at elk have been the same guys all along but back in the day they were just slob hunters now you see guys like that clown Randy the Real Gunsmith trying to bolster his view point by lumping the groups of guys who never did and never will do the work to make clean one shot kills with guys who strive for clean one shot kills but just do it at a range they can't wrap their minds around, I find that very frustrating!!

Great post!

 

[HARPERC]

.....O'Connor and all those folks did have scopes. they were around for a long time. But they just didn't believe in shooting that far. O'Connor was famous for saying, all you need is 4x, because anything too far away to shoot at with a 4x too far away to shoot at period...........

......Correct me if I recall wrong, but O'Connor wrote of his longest shot being a Wyoming bull elk at 600 yards.

......I'd say at minimum, absent a range finder, this was a less "ethical" practice, than what is being criticized here

 

[Moose4Me]

I thought about the .300 win mag, but since I'm just starting out and the most recoil I've felt is a .30-06, the .300 winmag kinda worries me. I don't want to develop a flinch due to excessive recoil, and would like some cheaper ammo.

It's all about shooting what your comfor

Don't do it - get a creed or a 6.5 prc and be done with it. If you really want to get crazy get a 280AI. Tell those 300 wm guys to stick it.

I have seen more elk lost or gutshot by guys shooting the 300 or 338 mags. They are over rated - most people can't shoot them well without a brake and even with a brake they flinch at the noise from the brake...like I said, over rated.

GREAT POST. It's all about shooting what you're comfortable/successful with. At the same time, I'm one of those 300WM guys. I'm comfortable and accurate with my 300WM. I also shoot my AI AX50 Elite at distances beyond 1,000 yds. Don't dis all 300WM guys. All range shooting out to 1,400 yds is done on my farm. I do understand that the 300 WM is a lot of gun for many, even most. I'm comfortable and have used one shoot to produce a ethical kill. NECKTWEAKER I would agree with FIGJAM's recommendation, all but tell us 300WM guys to stick it! Haha To great shooting...

 

[BigGrizz]

Ceteris paribus, that 6.5 may expand to 308, but that 308 isn't getting any smaller.

 

[FIGJAM]

It's all about shooting what your comfor

GREAT POST. It's all about shooting what you're comfortable/successful with. At the same time, I'm one of those 300WM guys. I'm comfortable and accurate with my 300WM. I also shoot my AI AX50 Elite at distances beyond 1,000 yds. Don't dis all 300WM guys. All range shooting out to 1,400 yds is done on my farm. I do understand that the 300 WM is a lot of gun for many, even most. I'm comfortable and have used one shoot to produce a ethical kill. NECKTWEAKER I would agree with FIGJAM's recommendation, all but tell us 300WM guys to stick it! Haha To great shooting...

I know some people who shoot those 300 mags well - I have a couple and am not recoil sensitive and shoot my 300 rum without a brake just fine. I think some people took some of my posts to mean I am anti- 300 mag, I am not. I just can't stand it when people get pressured into a larger round than they are comfortable with. I know several of those guys too. They would have been much better off shooting a 6.5 creed, 25-06, or 270. In order to shoot the heavier recoiling rounds well, you have to have a handle on the fundamentals and spend a lot of time shooting - that is my opinion. I am a big dude, 6'5 250lbs...i still have to walk myself through the fundamentals everytime I shoot the rum so I don't anticipate the recoil and make sure I get a good trigger press.

I think people come to this forum like the OP did to get some advice on what is adequate to get the job done and they read all these people stating their min for elk starts with a 300 and ends with a magnum and they feel like in order to go elk hunting that is what they have to have. My point this entire time was that a 6.5 or 7mm08 or 308 are all elk slayers and somebody shooting one will be just fine out to 600,700 and even further depending on their bullet and load. When you grow up elk hunting with family who shot 243s, 25-06s and 270s for all their elk hunting you have a different perspective on what can kill an elk effectively. Hunt with the largest cartridge you can shoot well, and know the limitations and ballistics of whatever you choose. If that is a 6.5 creed or a 257 bob, you will be fine. If you can shoot a 300 or 338 wm really well, shoot that....but for hells sakes, lets not make somebody feel like they have to shoot some magnum to get out there and have fun and success chasing elk. That is my only point.

 

[FIGJAM]

Hey, don't forget us 6.5 guys! I have total confidence in my SAUM out to 600 or so yards as long as I place it in the sweet spot.

I put my 270wsm in the same sweet spot. Light recoil, fast and flat.

 

[Moose4Me]

I know some people who shoot those 300 mags well - I have a couple and am not recoil sensitive and shoot my 300 rum without a brake just fine. I think some people took some of my posts to mean I am anti- 300 mag, I am not. I just can't stand it when people get pressured into a larger round than they are comfortable with. I know several of those guys too. They would have been much better off shooting a 6.5 creed, 25-06, or 270. In order to shoot the heavier recoiling rounds well, you have to have a handle on the fundamentals and spend a lot of time shooting - that is my opinion. I am a big dude, 6'5 250lbs...i still have to walk myself through the fundamentals everytime I shoot the rum so I don't anticipate the recoil and make sure I get a good trigger press.

I think people come to this forum like the OP did to get some advice on what is adequate to get the job done and they read all these people stating their min for elk starts with a 300 and ends with a magnum and they feel like in order to go elk hunting that is what they have to have. My point this entire time was that a 6.5 or 7mm08 or 308 are all elk slayers and somebody shooting one will be just fine out to 600,700 and even further depending on their bullet and load. When you grow up elk hunting with family who shot 243s, 25-06s and 270s for all their elk hunting you have a different perspective on what can kill an elk effectively. Hunt with the largest cartridge you can shoot well, and know the limitations and ballistics of whatever you choose. If that is a 6.5 creed or a 257 bob, you will be fine. If you can shoot a 300 or 338 wm really well, shoot that....but for hells sakes, lets not make somebody feel like they have to shoot some magnum to get out there and have fun and success chasing elk. That is my only point.

Great post. Agreed 100% Shoot what your find comfortable. It's more important to have a well placed shot that throwing a lot of lead down range. Hey I also have great time shooting long range with my Sharps 1874 45-110. Talk about expensive ammo! Reloading helps. Old school vernier sights are great fun. Still getting proficient at 600 yrs.

 

[Moose4Me]

I put my 270wsm in the same sweet spot. Light recoil, fast and flat.

Growing up in Western PA and then moving to Maine during my early years of hunting I used and saw more whitetail taken with a 270 than any other caliber. Great gun. Every one should have one in their safe. Two in mine!

 

[Big Jake Duke]

[QUOTE="HARPERC, post: 1586767, ...

And yes I would like a 6lb rifle, firing laser beams with no recoil. Someplace in the $500 dollar range.

Well $500.00 includes the scope- two years worth of ammo and three out of state hunting trips.

At least that's what I told my wife it costs!