Consistent 3 inch 1000 yard groups

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by Tyler Kemp, Dec 22, 2007.

  1. Tyler Kemp

    Tyler Kemp SPONSOR

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    From Ammoguide.com-"Many .50 BMG rifles are capable of consistently producing groups under 3 inches at 1000 yards."

    Is this true, and if so, how come more people don't use the 50 for hunting, and how would the 50 be so much more magically accurate than Mr. Allen's 338 AM shooting bullets with the same BC at the same or higher velocity? I have never heard accuracy claims like this before, but ammoguide always seem to have accurate information on their site.
     
  2. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    Two reasons I would suppose:

    1) I smell something funny there....

    2) 15 pound weight limit with everything attached in Idaho. The 50 is the reason for the regulation.
     

  3. davewilson

    davewilson Well-Known Member

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    "Many .50 BMG rifles are capable of consistently producing groups under 3 inches at 1000 yards."

    there isn't any gun out there that can do this much less a 50!

    the Polish have a word for this...it's BULLSHITSKI
     
  4. Tyler Kemp

    Tyler Kemp SPONSOR

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    Why a weight limit? I did see a 9.9 lb BMG online..."law enforcement only".
     
  5. bwaites

    bwaites Well-Known Member

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    Idaho has a weight limit to keep people from using the .50 for hunting.

    I have seen a single shot .50 light enough to meet the limit, even with a scope and bipod, but I like my shoulder where it is, and didn't even consider it!

    3 inch groups at 1000 yards are NOT a function of the rifle. If they happen, they are a function of the shooter who understands his rifle!

    That said, I think 3" is actually smaller than the world record group at 1000 yards!

    However, some of it depends on what you use as the group! 3 shots, 5 shots, 10 shots?

    If I remember correctly, the smallest 10 shot group is right around 4 inches, with a 5 shot group under 2 inches, (Tom Sarver if I remember right) and a 3 shot group smaller than that. None of those were .50's.

    Bill
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2007
  6. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    IBS light gun (17 lbs and under) record was set this yr with 5 shots into 1.4 inches at 1000 with perfect 50 score and 5x with a 300 Hulk (shortened 338 Lapua with 240s) by Tom Sarver in Ohio, previous record of 1.5 had stood for about 10 yrs with 6.5-286 super by Rich DeSimone of NC.

    IBS HG record is now at 3.4 inches for 10 shots at 1k.

    3 inches for a 50 tactical is one shot only group!!

    BH
     
  7. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    I have shot the big 50 ALOT. Tested more loads then I care to talk about, shot several different rifles from field grade to the high end BR rifles.

    What I have learned is that the 50 BMG can be an amazingly accurate and consistant chambering. I have also learned that it often takes dramatically more bench work to get the 50 to shoot well.

    My personal best 1000 yard 5 shot group is just under 5" at 4.988" ctc. I have shot several three shot groups that were in the 4 to 6" range. That said, for each of those groups, you can bet there have been easily a hundred that were in the 1/2 to 1 moa range at that distance, even with the best rifles out there.

    A 50BMG rifle capable if 3" groups at 1000 yards, sure, its possible, doing it all the time, BS!!!

    The limiting factor is generally not the rifle with the BMG, its the shooter and the handloader. There is no surplus ammo that will get better then 1 moa consistantly at 1000 yards. Most will be in the 2 to 3 moa range, only the very best match grade surplus ammo will better this and again, not by much.

    Good handloads, thats another story all together. I prefer the Hornady A-Max, just more user friendly being a lead core bullet in different bores.

    Problem is, no 50 BMG, save the tripod mounted M2 is easy to shoot. Now some of the heavy +50 lb rifles are not hard to shoot but they still produce alot of muzzle blast which is often more distacting then recoil. In a rifle 30 lbs or less, recoil IS AN ISSUE, no way around it. The recoil is not severe in most cases but its like nothing produced by a conventional chambering. You literally get moved by its recoil, about 6-8 inches rearward.

    SO have watches some of the very best long range shooters in the world shoot the 50 BMG in what seemed to be ideal conditions, they are still very happy to get sub 6" groups which is called a "Screamer Group" in theg FCSA BR matches.

    If you could hold 1/2 moa aggregate on your groups, you would win most 50 BMG BR matches. If you had a rifle that would shoot 3" groups at 1000 yards consistantly, you would never loose, EVER.

    That says it all, simply have to look at the match results to see what the very best 50 BMG shooters in the world are doing with the finest precision 50 BMG rifles made, this claim you found is simply a sales pitch or flat out BS.

    As far as comparing the 338 AM to the 50 BMG, at least comparing the 265 gr AT RBBT at 3500 fps to the 50 BMG with a 750 gr A-Max at 2700 fps, there really is no comparision, ballistically, in every catagory except retained kenetic energy, the 338 AM smokes the big 50 BMG.

    Not only that, recoil is not an issue of any kind with the 338 AM, even in 16 lb class rigs. Still a good amount of muzzle blast but nothing like the BMG. The flatter shooting and less wind drift makes it easier to make small groups or hit small targets at long range with the 338 AM then the BMG.

    Only advantage really is barrel life, the BMG has a very good barrel life compared to the 338 AM. That is why the 375 AM will be here very soon, just to boost barrel life while keeping ballistic performance similiar.

    Good SHooting,

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  8. Boss Hoss

    Boss Hoss Well-Known Member

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    Pretty funny----I have shot more 3in groups at 1K than I can remember with my 6.5 x 284!!!






























    With 2 or 3 shots LOL!!!!!
     
  9. Steve Shelp

    Steve Shelp Well-Known Member

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    The key word here is consistantly. When I read that it I hear "the vast majority of the time".

    I use to maintain the webpage and do all the newsletters and stats for the Hawks Ridge 1000yd BR club here in NC for several years. I've fired in several states and ranges over many years of BR competition to where the name is the game is to shoot the smallest group or highest score humanly possible.

    And one of the best days for conditions for shooting 1000yds I think I have ever seen over an extended period of time was in 2005 at this club. Light Gun class fired first and for the next several hours it was a dream to shoot.
    There were 75-80 LG shooters that day firing in relays of 12 shooters each. If you average each winning group per relay (5 shots at 1000yds) on that day for 8 total relays you get an average winning group of 4.257". The largest group fired that day to win a relay was 5.146" and the lowest score out of 50 pts was (1) target with a 48 score. And there were (4) perfect 50s shot that day for winning score targets. Obsolutely a trigger pulling contest. Days like this tell you how good your rifle is working and how good you gun handling really is. There is no holding off or nothing. It's simply shooting smooth and steady and not making the stupid mistake.

    To give you a better perspective if you take all 2nd place groups out of each relay and avergae them.. they average 5.148" for (8) 2nd place groups. Only (1) of those 2nd place groups was in the 6" range . All the rest were 3" to 5" groups. Unreal conditions.

    I consider the above results to be about as true representation of what is capable of rifles built with today components under the best conditions. Firing for the Hawks Ridge club starts at 9am and with 8 relays probably finished around 11am time frame. So over a 2 hour time frame with some of the best shooters, equipment, and conditions available, they averaged 4.257" and almost a perfect 50 score at 1000yds to win. This is best case scenario. I've seen several of these "winning" guns from this day get blown off paper at other matches when mother nature decided to flex her muscles a little bit. Been there done that.
    So, when someone says they can consistantly shoot under 3", the BS flag goes up in a hurry. And as Kirby already pointed out comparing a 50 against std center fire cartridges in 6.5 through 338 caliber isn't a true apples to apples comparison.

    So no I'm not buying it.

    Now if we are talking 3 shot groups or groups within a group, I've witnessed some amazing 3 and 5 shot strings while working the pits and spotting the shots on target as they come through. I've personally fired a 5/8" (5) shot group in Heavy Gun (HG) class one time at Range #4 at Quantico. That was the first 5 shots, can't remember what all 10 measured but it was in the 5 or 6" range when it was all said and done. Doug ? fired 9 out of 10 shots into 1.9" up at the PA club in 1999? I think it was. The last shot opened up his group to 3.???" overal ctc. Still a great group. But 9 shots in 1.9" at 1000yds.. that is a pretty group. You can see a picture of it on the The Original Pennsylvania 1000 Yard Benchrest Club, Inc. The Birthplace of Long Range Shooting. website. But all of these "groups" are ... woulda, shoulda, coulda and oh well, better luck next time.

    Steve
     
  10. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    Interesting read.

    Are most 1000 groups large due to inconsistent loads or from misjudging the wind? ( large is a relative term )

    Sorry for diverting the thread, but I have never shot 1000 yards.

    edge.
     
  11. Steve Shelp

    Steve Shelp Well-Known Member

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    Edge,
    Good question. To me it breaks down into 2 catagories. If you have great conditions like described above and you get beat.... typically your target will show up/down tendancies the majority of the time. Meaning your load is off a little or you need to adjust neck tension or seating depth a little bit.

    But on "typical" days during a match when there is wind and mirage if you take the targets that rank in the upper 50% bracket still show up/down in their groups. But the targets that are scored in the lower 50% bracket are the targets that typically show left and right. These are the shooters that got caught in a condition change or didn't read the wind/mirage correctly.

    Like I said I use to keep the stats at the club and have helped score many targets during competitions and most of the time the better groups will show vertical and the worst groups show horizontal patterns within the group.

    Getting rid of up/down is the hardest thing to do in this game. The IBS 10 shot HG group record was broken this year with a 3.391" target and it had up/down in it. But it's still an record. That is why the melpat trimming experiments started several years ago. Along with other things. But you have to have a good shooting rifle to be able to see this vertical change at all.

    And on top of that, a lot of guys try to work on their guns, wear out barrels, waste bullets, study chronograph stats until their eyes bleed thinking all this vertical is in their load. But if they would stop and watch the mirage once in awhile... what direction does mirage move in? Yep, up and down with some left to right. And then they wonder why small groups show up/down all the time when the mirage moves your aiming point up and down. It's not a coincidence in my book.

    Steve
     
  12. Tyler Kemp

    Tyler Kemp SPONSOR

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    What bullets will be used in the 375 AM? I haven't really seen anything aerodynamic and still affordable in that caliber.
     
  13. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    Steve, thanks for taking the time to explain that. Very interesting..and logical now that I know.

    edge.
     
  14. bwaites

    bwaites Well-Known Member

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