Calling all smith's

Discussion in 'Gunsmithing' started by cva54, Nov 3, 2009.

  1. cva54

    cva54 Well-Known Member

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    what is the procedure for accurizing a rifle? I just finishing up on my 700 and I know I went about the wrong way. It was the 1st time. But it all worked great I got a 1" 200 yard cold bolt .06 rifle. Want to save time and money (ON GAS) Do you do the stock piller bed and float first or the rifle. IF THE RIFLE were do you start? Just drop it off and say somthing like true the acction,reface the bolt (is that right),lap the lugs,adjust head space,triger job? Or is there a faster cheeper and more precise way?
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2009
  2. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    I'm not a smith but this has worked for me.

    Find a rifle smith. And I mean a rifle smith of some reputation not a local fella that calls him/her self a gun smith. This is the most important step. There are plenty here.

    I then send them the rifle or parts, 40 bucks FFL fee plus shipping-saves time and gas) and say here do your thing. Don't send them junk.......

    I stay very quiet after that and wait for the end result to reappear.

    While waiting I usually have a DIY project going to keep me busy.
     

  3. J E Custom

    J E Custom Well-Known Member

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    To do it right you must in my opinion=

    Using a good lathe .

    Square the receiver face.
    Square the receiver recoil lugs
    Square the bolt recoil lugs.
    Square the Bolt face.
    Then lap the lugs just enough to smooth them.
    All of this is done before head spacing and assuming that the bolt is not to loose in the
    receiver.

    Next I would install pillars , float the barrel and bed the action.
    after curring time (48 hours) torque around 50+ inch pounds depending on the stock used.

    I may have missed something but maybe the guys will speak up and add to it.

    Or as ROY said get someone that knows how and have them do it.

    J E CUSTOM
     
  4. KDB

    KDB Well-Known Member

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    I am not a smith, but have had several rifles worked over.

    I would say that if you have a rifle that shoots good, but not great, then pillar and float the barrel. If it still shoots good and not great, then consider having more work done.

    When you start talking about trueing actions and rebarreling rifles, then the expense factor goes way up. Sometimes, for a marginal increase in accuracy.

    So, here's my list:

    Pillar, bed and float barrel
    Install good trigger with lower pull wieght (jewell's are hard to beat)

    Then decide if it is worth sending off for the full monty. I would only get it trued if you are planning on a custom barrel, otherwise, it is not worth the expense.

    Good luck
     
  5. cva54

    cva54 Well-Known Member

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    The reason I ask is I bought this rifle a big name gun shop. There gun smith's did a AWSOM job on my 721 ADL now 700 BDL. The one I bought was a peace of s#%&. I was getting ready to fix this thing. lucky they let me do a store trade. Got a 700 SPS stainless camo stock in 7mm rem mag. I FEEL MUTCH BETTER NOW!
     
  6. NesikaChad

    NesikaChad Well-Known Member

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    Here's how I go about the process of tuning up a receiver.

    LongRifles, Inc.


    Regarding guard screw torque and stuff. I have some very deep rooted opinions on the torque of an action's guard screw and barrel tennon. It stems from a situation I once faced. Years ago I ran into an issue with a rifle and the solution seemed to be cranking down harder on the screws. Through a mutual friend I met a guy who makes a very, very good living designing and testing fasteners for the aerospace industry. We began discussing things like shear loads, torsional loading, and friction coefficients as they apply to a 60 degree thread form. The conversation was interesting and when I hung up the phone I assumed that was that. A couple months later I received what I'm about to share with everyone. This guy had performed a bunch of testing on his own and shared it with me. Very, very cool of him to do.

    Take from it what you want. I offer it as data. Who'd of thought a lowly screw could generate so much ruckus. Kinda cool.

    This was sent to me in PDF format. It didn't copy and paste very well so I went through some of it and tried to clean it up so it'd be easier to read. Sorry if I missed spots.

    Enjoy.


    Hi Chad,
    Regarding our discussion about tensile stress of your ¼-28 fastener, I have outlined some of
    the topics. I planned to get back with you much sooner, but discovered I had some of my tools missing. I wasn’t able to do actual load tests until I replaced them. Then we were swamped with a series of orders for our gauge kits and it hasn’t let up since. We have never been this busy. One company alone ordered over 50 kits, 20 of which were on UPS Red basis.
    I have a frame and load cell device that can give some actual test results of a fastener. There are calculations for all of the conditions you described, but I like having some actual data.
    Anyway, let me go back over some of the questions we discussed on the phone:

    Q1: What tensile load is being applied to the connection.

    Q2: On a 1/4-28 socket head screw with 82° Csk head made of 15-5 PH CRES Steel, how
    much clamping force is generated by 40 inch pounds of torque on the screw.

    Q3: How much shear load exists between the screw head and the thread at 40 in lbs.
    First, let me mention a few common characteristics of nuts and bolts that you might find useful.
    A lot of this you probably already know, but it’s worth stating so we can approach this from the
    same perspective.

    1) A nut and bolt (or screw) assembly will experience a lower preload after they are assembled as few as three to five times. This is due to the nut conforming to the screw
    threads and developing more contact area (more friction area).

    2) Calculations and tables for nut and bolt connections are based on new pieces
    with manufacturing tolerances (per class of fit) figured in to the equation. Unless
    it is noted otherwise, the torque references are usually for dry or lightly oiled screw
    threads — not greased or plated components, and definitely not dry-lubed or for
    parts that have anti-seize type compounds on them.

    In fact Chad, I don’t consider a connection to be secure (from the forces of friction) if
    anti-seize compounds are used. It makes for a nice smooth fit, but that connection will
    experience 30% higher tension in the screw from those highly lubricious compounds.



    When a connection is made with anti-sieze on the threads and under the head of the bolt,
    over time it can (and often do) come loose.

    If any shock loading occurrs, or worse if vibrations are occurring in the joint, then the nut
    will most likely unscrew itself in a short time if anti-seize is used.

    3) Vibrations are particularly bad for fasteners. If constant (or even intermittant) vibrations
    are present, then a mechanical locking component should be used.
    Tang washers are a common type of mechanical lock, but lock-tite compounds might also
    work as an anti-vibration method.

    4) When choosing a fastener, use fine pitch threads for maximum strength of the joint. But
    if you must assembly and reassembly the joint frequently, then a coarse thread is better.
    There is less chance of cross threading a coarse thread, and if the joint has a chance of
    becomming corroded, then a coarse threaded joint has a much better chance of being
    disassembled without damaging the threads.

    Your connection should be considered as being in a high vibration area. Of course, the vibrations
    are very low frequency, but they are high in magnitude. I am not sure what effect this has on
    threaded fasteners. I think that high frequency vibrations at any amplitude would be far worse.
    The major interest in most cold fastener joints is tensile strength. There are other problem areas
    such as joints that work at high temperatures, or in highly corrosive environments, or joints that
    work in shear rather than with tensile loads. But tensile strength is usually the first thing a person considers when selecting a screw or bolt.

    If you want to determine the load carrying capability of a screw, you need to know the tensile
    strength of the material that it is made of. A Rockwell hardness test will determine it’s tensile
    strength, or you can be more accurate by actually tensile testing a coupon of material being
    used. Either way you do it, you will have a value to work with. Most engineers just use the bolt
    grade to determine its tensile strength, but many aircraft (or highly stressed) bolts are tensile
    tested to be certain.

    Also there are tables that list the “commonly used” strength values. But I think it’s good to know
    how to figure the actual load carrying ability of the screw you choose. Here’s how to do it:
    Tensile strength is determined from the formula S = P/A
    where S = tensile strength (psi)
    P = tensile load (pounds)
    A = tensile stress area (square inches)
    Based on this, the minimum tensile load requirement for a fastener can be calculated in terms of
    P = S A



    (Øm/2)2 times pi

    X 1.10 for coarse thd. , or
    X 1.05 for fine thread.

    But here’s one problem — calculating the tensile stress area of a screw isn’t as easy as it looks!
    Depending upon the industry you are in, the calculation can be taken as an area that is based
    upon the pitch diameter (High Strength Aerospace Fasteners), or at the minor diameter (where
    stress rupture strength or fatigue strength is important).
    I only know of these two, but there might be more.

    Which of these you use, there is still a serious problem in calculating the area of metal that will
    become your tensile stress area. That is because you are working on a helix angle of the thread.
    Another issue is that Aerospace Standards are based upon leaving only two threads exposed
    from the nut and shank of the bolt. Commercial Standards allow up to 6 threads exposed. The
    difference is that there will be higher tensile strength in the Aerospace configuration because for
    some reason, shortening the exposed threads will reduce strain hardening and notch sensitivity
    of the joint.

    Of course, if you just determine the tensile strength of the material and calculate the stress area
    of the bolt, then do the math and you will have your value. The only way you know it is different
    is when you observe the actual tensile test results when breaking test coupons.
    The easiest thing to do is look up in a chart what the tensile stress area is calculated to be. Or,
    you can do what I do and just calculate the maximum strength of the bolt as the minor diameter
    of the screw thread that is used. I know this value is somewhat lower than actual real world tests would prove, but it is so much easier and because safety is always important, you have lower calculated tensile strengths than will actually exist, adding a small amount to your safety margin. Another thing, coarse threads are about 10% stronger than if you calculate based on the minor diameter. Fine pitch threads are about 5% stronger. Here is an easy way to get real close to the actual values, but without all the complicated math:
    Use the minor diameter of the thread, devide by 2, square this value, and multiply that
    result by pi.

    Øm = minor diameter
    So, for example, if the minor diameter of a ½-13 thread = .4041
    Devide this minor dia. by 2 = .2021 and then square this number = .0408
    Multiply this number by pi .0408 x 3.14159 = .1283 square inches.
    Multiply that number by 110% (coarse thd.) .1283 x 1.10 = .1411 square inches.
    The actual tensile stress area is given as .1419 square inches from the chart. So you can see
    that the above method is very close — within 1% of the far more difficult calculation!


    Using the tensile stress area of .1419 square inches, we can simply multiply this
    area by the tensile strength of the steel that the bolt is made of to find the maximum
    load the bolt can handle.

    For example, C1018 has an ultimate tensile strength of 125,000 pounds. So, just
    multiply this material ultimate strength value by the tensile stress area of the bolt:
    .1419 square inches x 125,000 pounds per square inch = 17,738 pounds maximum
    But I never use the ultimate tensile strength when I design something. I use the yield strength
    of the steel, because I want the maximum strength of the bolt without it going into the plastic
    region and distorting. In other words, I want its maximum working strength, or proof load.
    That value for C1018 is about 74,000 psi. Therefore the bolt’s proof load is 10,500 pounds. If
    you apply the safety factor to this (say 2 :1 factor) you can be pretty sure the bolt will work for a
    long time at 5,250 pounds. Of course, safety factors vary greatly for the given circumstance.
    So if you just use this method, you can find the tensile stress area of whatever screw you are
    working with. The Machinists Handbook or handbook H28 has all the thread data listed. Just
    use the minor diameter and work this formula.

    If the screw or bolt you are using is in shear rather than in tension, then you can figure the
    shear strength at about 75% of the tensile strength. This value works for most low to medium
    strength steels. For high strength screws (125,000 UT or higher), this difference can be in the
    54% to60% region.

    Chad, I’m not done here but given the sorts of delays I run into, I’m going to send this much off
    to you right now.

    Later I will do some actual load tests on the ¼-28 threads you and I discussed. I will get back
    to you after that.

    If you have some questions regarding the above, please e-mail to me.
    Again, sorry for this long delay. I’ll try to be faster with the rest of the info.

    Kindest regards,
    Jerome
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2009
  7. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    Chad,

    Thanks for posting.

    For more than 40 years I've been a hawg when it comes to torquing mounting AND scope ring screws.:rolleyes:

    I think your post just cost me the price of an "# torque wrench.........plus a bunch of shooting to confirm thinng.

    If I'm over torqued I'm gonna be torqued.:D
     
  8. MontanaRifleman

    MontanaRifleman Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for posting that Chad, but what does that mean to me when I am tightening down action, windage and scope ring screws???

    I tried hard to read through and understand... I really did... but when I got to about here my head started hurting...


    I use the FAT torque wrench and I usually exceed the the recommended torque levels. i.e., Rem recommends 65 inch/lbs on the Sendero/HS stock and the FAT wrench recommends 45. I use 65. I use 45 on the NF picatinny windage nuts and 25 on the alloy ring screws. Is this good or bad???

    Thanks,

    Mark

    PS, I usually check my windage nuts after a few shots fron the 300 RUM after remounting the scope. Have found one or two a little loose after a few jolts from the boomer.
     
  9. NesikaChad

    NesikaChad Well-Known Member

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    It means:

    Guard screws using a 1/4-28 pitch get 40 inch lbs.
    Scope mounts using 8-40 screws get 18 inch lbs.
    Scope mounts using 6-48's get 10-12 inch lbs.

    This is of course assuming the fasteners are made from a good material.

    The "Unbreako" brand carried by Fastenal are pretty good.
     
  10. cva54

    cva54 Well-Known Member

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    WOW that is perfeck. I was looking for that about 2 years ago. that brings up pillers and bedding. When it comes to torque I know about that i am a mec. headgaskets and so on. torque WILL bend metal so if you keep changing your action screws torque it pulls and bends on the action right. so that why we bed rifles right. pillers stop that to. but if you are floating your torque all over the place what that going to do for accuracy. with using a torque wrench you can check it right at the range or ditch. the gess work is gone. thanks chad
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2009
  11. cva54

    cva54 Well-Known Member

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    LOL you know the reason I asked about bolts way back Was I wanted to know if action screws were grade 5 or grade 8 and I still dont know. Gave up trying fig. it out just bought some 700 bolts.
     
  12. Chopaka81

    Chopaka81 Well-Known Member

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    Regarding bolt fit, I am curious, on M700 Action is it better to go with an aftermarket replacement bolt? I.E. a PTG? I am looking at my M700VS in 223 and thinking about having it rebuilt to either a 6.5mm WSM or a 7mm WSM. But then looking at the cost of the work on a M700, I wonder if buying a Stiller is a better choice?
     
  13. NesikaChad

    NesikaChad Well-Known Member

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    I think it'd be safe to say that any premium made to order (I hate the word "custom") action is going to be manufactured to a higher degree of quality than a bulk of the mainstream production versions.

    What it boils down to is the decision largely depends on your desires and disposable income.

    David Kiff makes a very good product and it's a certainty that it will work flawlessly so you really can't go wrong either way.
     
  14. cva54

    cva54 Well-Known Member

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    Well ben out shooting and hunting my new rifle. (I love it) Shoots AWSOME the only work I can see is a good trigger job and pillers. How does this work on a conposet stock dont want to float yet just pillers.