Building a switch barrel rifle, slowly.

[holechit]

I know that the WTO switch lug system has been covered as nauseum here, but I am looking at taking a different approach, and am interested in opinions.

So this all started with the idea of having one rifle for many situations. And needing a new lighter weight predator rifle.

I'm wanting to get a new 308 for hunting (my current 308 bolt gun is a 17lb range toy), and I also am in the process of trying to sell my tack driver 223 bolt gun for something lighter. I would love to be able to have both out of one platform. One stock, one optic, multiple calibers. So switch barrel it is. But I don't have a sky high budget like many do for custom switch barrel rifles. I also am having a hard time bringing myself to purchase a custom action. So here's my thought: buy a Remington 700sps tactical in 308, buy the WTO switch lug system, and get the factory barrel machined to match up, as well as a lighter profile 223 barrel with matching bolt for song dogs. As time goes on and I find more funds, I buy a timney trigger, new stock with pillars and bedding, etc. maybe snag up another barrel in something a little spicier if I get a chance to chase sheep or elk in the future.

Thoughts on this process? Am I able to get the factory barrel machined to work with the system, or do I have to buy a brand new barrel? What can I do about bottom metal to make the different calibers feasible? I'm open to magazines or hinged bottom metal. I'm pretty new to the custom idea, all my current rifles are off the shelf stuff.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Rob01]

Here is a better way. Get a Bighorn Origin action for $875 and you can build both off of that action and just change the bolt head and barrel. Simple and a much better base than any 700 action.

 

[jlarose85]

I agree with Rob, I think the Origin with different bold heads is the way to go. I was going to do the same thing to be able to switch between a 16.5" .308 and a 20" 300 WSM. I shoot suppressed so that's why I'm going with shorter barrels. Long story short, I ended up getting a really good deal on a Bergara Premier Approach in .308 and since it has the same floating bolt head design as the Origin I'm going to be building my switch barrel setup off of that. I definitely like the idea of one stock, trigger, optic, etc. and multiple barrels and bolt heads.

 

[holechit]

Alright, so apparently I didn't do enough research. From what I'm looking at, the WTO switchlug or similar products are simply solutions to allow you to switch barrels without a barrel vice or action wrench. I can keep it simple by using an action/barrel that has a straight shoulder/prefit to my head spacing.

But what do I do about bottom metal? I would like reliability and ease of use with both 223 and 308. Would I just have to buy two different sets of DBM?

 

[Rob01]

No you wouldn't as you just use AICS dbm and then use .223 mags for one and .308 mags for the other. Same bottom metal. I have a TL3 action with a 6.5 Creedmoor and .223 barrel and they use the same stock/DBM but just different mags.

 

[BallisticsGuy]

I've been down this road a few times trying to make something I could swap barrels in the field on. It's not all daisies. Gotta decide what you expect of a switch barrel and aggressively pursue the goals via selection of design elements. Doing things over time, could be good, might not be. I know because that's the exact road I went down the first time. Just .308 & .223 to start then everything went off the rails. Next I wanted belted magnums and then I thought a .338Lapua might be fun.

The best option is to go with something that's designed to be used as a switch barrel. Blaser, Accuracy International, Barrett, Desert Tech and a very few others do make rifles that have barrel switching engineered into the design. Blaser is the best option as its core design is switch barrel functionality. Barrett and Desert Tech have the next best engineered options. Accuracy International comes a close third but their AXMC is more or less just an adapted AX. Bighorn TL3 and other actions with an integral recoil lug come in last because they don't have a system to fix the barrel in place. WTO switch lug tries to do the same thing as an integral lug gets you and you wouldn't want one on a TL3 since it has an integral lug.

Issues:
1. Feed/extraction reliability. Action length is a real thing and it affects the heck out of feeding/extracting reliability. If the magazine system isn't thought out well all you'll get is an unreliable mess. .223 being really short causes issues with ejection. The only great solution I've seen other than the Blaser R8 is Short Action Customs' .223 conversion for Desert Tech as it shortens the distance from bullet nose in the magazine to breech face which makes for great feeding and ejection reliability.
2. Bolt face size is a thing. How big/small do you want to be able to go? Very few options exist that allow more flexibility than .473" & .532" but there's also .384" (.223Rem bolt face) and .588" (.338LM bolt face) and the less commonly desired .445" and .422". So far only DT spans from .223 bolt face to .338LM bolt face.
3. How easy is it actually going to be to change barrels? Blaser and DT are trivially easy. Hand tight shouldered barrels in a TL3 is also trivially easy.
4. What about zero repeatability? First shot repeatability with shouldered barrels on actions like TL3 can be hit and miss. I've had it work out and not work out. Machining precision matters and you don't find out till it's done.
5. What special tools needed? Can you change barrels quickly in the field? Depending on how you do it you might just need your hand or a box end wrench or a specialized torque limiter.

A Savage style barrel nut and similar things like the switch lug just are not repeatable. A shouldered barrel on a rifle with an integral recoil lug like a TL3 actually can be fairly repeatable even without torquing the barrel as long as everything is faced super true. Hand tight is sufficient in such cases. Thing is, in my experience it's the 2nd or 3rd shot that'll be back to barrel-zero, not the first if you're spinning it on hand tight and quality of machining is paramount.

After repeatedly not accomplishing the goal, I went Desert Tech because that system is designed to allow in-the-field barrel changes with a single small and easy to tote tool and it's very repeatable and it's really reliable with anything from .223Rem to .338Lapua. Admittedly only Short Action Customs makes a .223 kit for it but one is available. Blaser R8 would have been a good choice too but it's a little less optimal for competition and a little more for big game hunting and I wanted kinda the opposite... a little more for precision shooting competition and a little less for offhand shots in the woods or in the veld.

 

[Rob01]

Too many people get hung up on in the field barrel changes. It's one of those things that sounds cool but very rarely used. I know I don;t care about it because I go to the range to shoot the rifle that I bring with me but even if I did I would just bring the vise and C clamp it to the bench and I can easily change it at the range also. If he wanted to WTO the Origin would work perfectly as it has a pinned lug and would be an easy swap.

The AICS mags work just fine going from .308 to .223 also. No issues feeding. MDT makes .223 mags that allow loading .223 to 2.550" also so no short .223 restrictions and you can load heavier long range bullets. I load 75 ELDs in mine to 2.470" and have shot them to over 1150 yards in matches and they work great. Have also shot standard length .223 factory ammo and all fed perfectly.

The DTA is a real nice set up but with his price range it's way out of it as are AI and Barretts. That is why I mentioned the Origin at $875 and he can buy shouldered prefits as cheap as $500 and be in business.

 

[holechit]

I looked into the Blaser rifles, and that's definitely on my bucket list. But at roughly $4-6k to start and $1200 per additional caliber, It's not a cost effective solution for me. I'm trying to get away from buying a $1000 rifle, plus $2-300+ in mods, and then a $300-1000 scope every time I want to get another reasonable hunting rifle.

I'm not really needing the ability of dead on repeatable zeros or field barrel changes. I've played with that stuff with my CZ457 and in two years, I've swapped barrels in the field once. It wouldn't be any harder to swap out a shouldered barrel, but I just don't see it being something I feel necessary. I hunt year around, typically 30-50 days out of the year. Those numbers are probably going to increase, as I'm waiting on my first versatile hunting dog to hit the ground. I typically go out and rezero/check my zero on my rifles every other trip out and I don't mind doing so. I just need a versatile platform that will provide me a decent amount of flexibility to adapt to what I'm hunting that month, while saving me some cash.

So if I am reading what you guys are saying right, as long as I buy AICS pattern bottom metal, I can use 223 or 308 aics mags interchangeably?

 

[Rob01]

I looked into the Blaser rifles, and that's definitely on my bucket list. But at roughly $4-6k to start and $1200 per additional caliber, It's not a cost effective solution for me. I'm trying to get away from buying a $1000 rifle, plus $2-300+ in mods, and then a $300-1000 scope every time I want to get another reasonable hunting rifle.

I'm not really needing the ability of dead on repeatable zeros or field barrel changes. I've played with that stuff with my CZ457 and in two years, I've swapped barrels in the field once. It wouldn't be any harder to swap out a shouldered barrel, but I just don't see it being something I feel necessary. I hunt year around, typically 30-50 days out of the year. Those numbers are probably going to increase, as I'm waiting on my first versatile hunting dog to hit the ground. I typically go out and rezero/check my zero on my rifles every other trip out and I don't mind doing so. I just need a versatile platform that will provide me a decent amount of flexibility to adapt to what I'm hunting that month, while saving me some cash.

So if I am reading what you guys are saying right, as long as I buy AICS pattern bottom metal, I can use 223 or 308 aics mags interchangeably?

Yes AICS DBM will work with both. I do it and have used it in a couple of Manners stocks. Just need the caliber specific mags.

Also with the Origin you can also get a magnum bolt face as well as the .223 and .308 sized so you could actually make a short magnum also off that action down the road. Very versatile.

 

[waveslayer]

Like Rob01 stated , switching out in the field is rare. I do it but I'm not hunting I'm messing around. I'm running a MRAD and DT, so changing barrels is under a minute for the DT and 2 minutes for the MRAD.

The nice thing with the DT is going from .223 up to a 375 Swiss P. You get lots a variety and the mags don't restrict OAL.

I feel my MRAD's bolt is a little smoother but it's heavy. The new DT's are light , much lighter than mine.

 

[Ckleeves]

Too many people get hung up on in the field barrel changes. It's one of those things that sounds cool but very rarely used. I know I don;t care about it because I go to the range to shoot the rifle that I bring with me but even if I did I would just bring the vise and C clamp it to the bench and I can easily change it at the range also. If he wanted to WTO the Origin would work perfectly as it has a pinned lug and would be an easy swap.

The AICS mags work just fine going from .308 to .223 also. No issues feeding. MDT makes .223 mags that allow loading .223 to 2.550" also so no short .223 restrictions and you can load heavier long range bullets. I load 75 ELDs in mine to 2.470" and have shot them to over 1150 yards in matches and they work great. Have also shot standard length .223 factory ammo and all fed perfectly.

The DTA is a real nice set up but with his price range it's way out of it as are AI and Barretts. That is why I mentioned the Origin at $875 and he can buy shouldered prefits as cheap as $500 and be in business.

^This is spot on. Buy a Origin or TL3, prefit barrels and Aics mag feed it. The Remington route may start out cheaper but by the time you buy a new bolt, have a blank chambered for the 223 barrel, get bottom metal for the factory rem Tupperware stock and a decent trigger the Origin is going to look like a bargain.

 

[SteelBanger]

I've been exactly where you are and this is what I ultimately decided on ... Terminus Zeus action. I know you mentioned you're a little gun-shy on the price of custom actions, but I would strongly recommend looking at the Zeus - buy once, cry once. It has the quick change feature built right into the action and you can do it in less than a minute. The Origin is another great option but then you're either having to use a bench vice or pay to have the WTO lug put on it, so why not just buy the action that's designed to do exactly what you want to do? The main benefit of the origin over the Zeus in my mind is the bolt head swap, it's definitely more money to buy the extra bolts for the Zeus compared to a bolt head on the origin.

 

[holechit]

Alright, you guys have me convinced. I'm gonna start getting parts together for a custom rifle. Start with 223, eventually get a 308/whatever barrels tickle my fancy. I need to look a little more, but I think the bighorn origin is gonna fit the bill.

If I'm buying a custom action, prefit shouldered barrels, and an out of the box timney trigger, do I really need a gunsmith for any of this, assuming I use common sense and purchase my own action wrench/barrel vice? All I should need is to get my selected stock bedded after putting it all together, right?

 

[Ckleeves]

Yep, buy your own action wrench/vice and read up on how to do it and you will be in good shape. It's not difficult at all. If you have a gunsmith bed it then I'm sure you can talk him into dropping a go/no go gauge into it while he he's bedding it just to be sure.