Best die for bumping shoulder

[Mikecr]

With off the shelf factory rifles the vast majority of case necks will expand more than .004 when fired.

Ok, that's for a factory rifle.

And when reducing the neck diameter with a bushing die this can induce neck runout.

Runout can be induced exactly the same with FL dies. The problem here is a high amount of sizing,, not the sizing type.

And why Redding recommends reducing the neck diameter in two steps to reduce induced neck runout with a bushing die.

Bushings are designed for under 5thou of sizing. Beyond this, and the angles generated roll brass inward past design(over size). For those of us not running excess neck clearances, single bushings work as designed.

Redding also recommends if the case necks are not turned to use a bushing .002 smaller and use the expander that comes with the die.

Turned or not, and regardless of sizing amount, necks should always be expanded(pre-seated).

Bottom line, a full length non-bushing die supports the case body and case neck and will produce the most concentric cases..

How is this a 'bottom line'? You've provided no basis for a lack of body support from body-bushing dies.
So I'll go ahead and counter -it's exactly the same support.

And there is a reason why die hard neck sizers are using the Lee collet die vs bushing dies.

That is, die hard neck sizers obsessed with lowest neck runout, and accepting loss of tension control & adjustments to get it.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Any die can become a 'bump' die if you remove a set amount of material from the base of the die or use a modified shell holder that is made with a shorter insert to face height than a standard dimension shell holder, Myself, I prefer jigging the die upside down on a surface grinder and removing a couple thousands from the base (of a standard die, FL or NS, bushing or non bushing don't matter). what does is the internal neck (start) dimension to the base dimension. Do that all the time with standard base dies.

I bump all my cases unless straight wall of course, for easier extraction. When bumping it is important to gauge the shoulder to determine the amount of bump and record it for later reference (if the die is used to size for different rifles). In the case of my dies, most of them size for a particular rifle so I'll get the case where I want it and lock the lock ring and leave it there.

Of course just bumping shoulders and sizing necks is just part of the equation. For consistent neck tension and to preserve the brass, I anneal after every 3 loading. I anneal my straight wall cases that require a heavy crimp as well (460-44 and 500).

 

[bigedp51]

Ok, that's for a factory rifle.
Runout can be induced exactly the same with FL dies. The problem here is a high amount of sizing,, not the sizing type.
Bushings are designed for under 5thou of sizing. Beyond this, and the angles generated roll brass inward past design(over size). For those of us not running excess neck clearances, single bushings work as designed.
Turned or not, and regardless of sizing amount, necks should always be expanded(pre-seated).
How is this a 'bottom line'? You've provided no basis for a lack of body support from body-bushing dies.
So I'll go ahead and counter -it's exactly the same support.
That is, die hard neck sizers obsessed with lowest neck runout, and accepting loss of tension control & adjustments to get it.

When reading postings in reloading forums the people in a forum have to differentiate between shooters with custom rifles and those who have off the shelf factory rifles, and this forum is not Benchrest Central.

So I will stand by all my statements because I do not own any custom rifles with tight neck chambers. And my standard Forster full length dies produce less neck runout than bushing dies.

Runout can be induced exactly the same with FL dies. The problem here is a high amount of sizing,, not the sizing type.
Bushings are designed for under 5thou of sizing. Beyond this, and the angles generated roll brass inward past design(over size). For those of us not running excess neck clearances, single bushings work as designed.

So Mikecr you have custom rifles with tight neck chambers and you decided to critique my postings using off the shelf factory rifles. How many people here have custom made rifles and how many have factory rifles.

You stated above bushing dies are designed for under .005 sizing, so how many factory rifle chambers have .0025 clearance on each side of the case neck?

Turned or not, and regardless of sizing amount, necks should always be expanded(pre-seated).

And how many people using bushing dies use the dies expander or a expander die after sizing.

You've provided no basis for a lack of body support from body-bushing dies.
So I'll go ahead and counter -it's exactly the same support.

You just said bushing dies are designed for less than .005 sizing, and if more than that the bushing die will induce neck runout. And this is because the bushing floats and can move side to side and even tilt.
Therefore a bushing die does "NOT" have the same support as a non-bushing full length die.

And any reloader with a factory rifle is better off not using bushing dies if the neck expands over .005 when fired. And the links I provided back up what I have stated here.

And I have a Forster bushing bump neck sizing die and it induces more neck runout than the standard non-bushing Forster full length dies. This is because neck sizing dies do not support the case body and it has a floating bushing that does not support the case neck.

Bottom line, if you remove the expander from any type full length die and size the case it will be as concentric as it ever will be. And if you add a floating bushing this means the sized neck can float and move where it wants to go.

 

[Lonewolf74]

That is, die hard neck sizers obsessed with lowest neck runout, and accepting loss of tension control & adjustments to get it.

Mike you have my curiosity on this. How do you control tension regardless of die type used and or loss of it by certain type's of dies?

 

[bigedp51]

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Some Frequently Asked Questions
http://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/132-faqs1

Question: Do I need to use the expander button that came with my Type "S" Die?
Answer: It is advisable to use an expander button to maintain consistent neck tension if the case necks have not been turned to a uniform wall thickness. However, the expander button can be replaced with the Decapping Pin Retainer (included with your Type "S" Die) if the user does not wish to use an expander button.

Question: I am new to reloading but I want the best Die Set that money can buy. What Dies should I purchase?

Answer: While it may be tempting to order our Type "S" Dies or Competition Dies right out of the gate, most new reloaders would be better served with a standard Full Length Die Set. These Dies can produce extremely accurate ammunition and are much easier to use than Bushing/Competition Dies. Moreover, a Standard Die Set is a fantastic way to learn the mechanics of reloading.

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
Concentricity Problems
a.k.a Neck Runout With Bottleneck Cases
http://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/146-concentricity-problems

The concentricity, or neck runout, of loaded cartridges is an important consideration for reloaders and especially the varmint or target shooter.

There are many factors that can cause or contribute to neck runout during the reloading process and many reloaders who have not dealt with the problem before quickly blame the sizing or seating die.

While the dies may be at fault or have a contributing defect, modern CNC machinery and reamers that cut the body, shoulder, and neck simultaneously make such occurrences rare. Most problems are related to the brass itself and its uniformity both in terms of hardness and thickness and how much it is being stressed in the reloading process.

We have conducted many tests over the years on the various factors contributing to concentricity problems with bottleneck cases. We have repeatedly found a definite correlation between the uniformity of the brass (or lack of it) and the resulting concentricity of the neck to the body of the case.

An interesting experiment also revealed that neck turning of brass that was intentionally sorted as non-uniform, showed little or no concentricity improvement when used in standard S.A.A.M.I. spec chambers. Conversely brass that was sorted and selected for uniformity remained uniform and concentric with or without a neck turning operation.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Interesting comment concerning expander balls. I never use them. First thing I do is remove them along with the decap pin. Not needed. I use a dedicated decap die (Lyman) always. I have never seen the need to expand a neck. If the brass is correctly annealed, when the round is fired, the neck contacts the walls of the chamber, the bullet exits and the neck contracts but less than it was originally sized to so I see no point in double working the neck every time you load a pill. No point and just workhardens the neck that much faster. Not sure why any dies has an expander ball anyway. Only expansion I do is flaring a case mouth on a straightwall case to accept a bullet.

My opinion is there is no best die for bumping shoulders, any die can be modified to perform that operation, either by reducing the die base dimension or using a modified shell holder.

 

[bigedp51]

so I'm new to reloading and wondering what the best die for bumping the shoulders back on brass? Thanks in advance

Is there anyway I can size the neck and shoulder of the brass without touching the body of the brass?

There is only one die I know of the will size the neck and bump the shoulder without touching the case body.

And that is the Forster bushing bump die.
https://www.forsterproducts.com/pro...ing/bushing-bump-neck-bench-rest-sizing-dies/

Bushing Bump Neck Bench Rest® Sizing Dies
The Bushing Bump Neck Sizing Die brings you an advanced precision level by allowing you to precisely control the amount of neck sizing tension in your reloaded cartridge brass. This die improves accuracy and prolongs case life because the neck is sized down as little as necessary while still "bumping" the shoulder of the case to maintain overall case concentricity.

Bump the Shoulder without Changing the Case Neck Diameter
By removing the neck bushing, you can use the Bushing Bump Neck Sizing Die to bump just the case shoulder without changing the neck diameter. This action maintains proper headspace in any chamber, custom or factory setting.

 

[Mikecr]

Mike you have my curiosity on this. How do you control tension regardless of die type used and or loss of it by certain type's of dies?

Neck tension is provided by a given area of neck springing back against seated bullet bearing (grip). Adjust the area, and you adjust the grip, which is overcome by load pressure to expand the neck enough to release bullets.
Keep in mind that when a neck expands beyond bullet diameter, by so much as a few molecules of distance, the bullet is freely released.

You select the proper sizing amount with bushing dies, and some also allow for adjustment of neck sizing length(tension adjustment). Not all do, few if any would adjust all the way to FL sizing of necks(a bad action anyway), and some necks are too short to provide for significant adjustments.
As far as I know, a collet die is not adjustable in the length of it's neck sizing.
You can partial length neck size with FL dies, but often there are prices for it elsewhere in case sizing.
All dies could be CUSTOM, and do anything you make them do. So all die types are capable of what you want.

What I'm trying to convey here is that there is no single die type that could be declared as 'better' than the rest. Go any approach -with a plan and appropriate action, and you'll cause what you want.

 

[gohring3006]

What I'm trying to convey here is that there is no single die type that could be declared as 'better' than the rest. Go any approach -with a plan and appropriate action, and you'll cause what you want.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.



Ps. Mike, you're right you can not adjust length of which the collet die sizes the neck. You can adjust the pressure of the "squeeze" of the collet by adjusting the camover pressure of the press/shell holder to the bottom of the die.

 

[bigedp51]

The way you adjust neck tension/bullet grip with the lee collet die is to slightly decrease the mandrill diameter. All you accomplish by squeezing the collet harder is leaving collet slot marks on the case neck.

https://leeprecision.com/instructions.html

ADJUSTMENT FOR LEE PRESSES
Screw the sizing die in until it contacts the shell holder, plus
one turn more. If you are using a Lee Precision "Classic"
series press, adjust the die 1¾ turns into the press. Run
a case into the die. You will feel the primer being extracted,
then the lever will come to an abrupt stop. At this point, the
lever must be pushed firmly (min. 25 lbs.) to close the collet
and size the neck. Extra bullet grip can be obtained by
screwing the die in an additional quarter-turn.
Other brands of presses that toggle or snap over center
at the end of the stroke provide no feel and can damage the
collet neck sizing die if adjusted as above. We suggest the
die be screwed in until the die contacts the shell holder, plus
2 FULL TURNS. This will prevent the press from toggling
over center and give the operator feel of the collet closing.
OPTION Even greater accuracy can be obtained by rotating
the case one-half turn and sizing the case a second time.

TIGHTER BULLET FIT
As delivered from the factory, the collet die will grip the
bullet with a light press fit with cases of average hardness.
For a tighter fit, you can anneal the case neck or
polish the decapper mandrel .001 smaller. Do not go
beyond .001 smaller as there will be no increase in bullet
pull, and a decrease in accuracy as the bullet will then be
sizing the neck as it is inserted.

OPTION The collet die provides the optimum bullet fit
for maximum accuracy and case life. Should you desire a
tighter fit, and are not able or willing to polish the mandrel
or anneal the case neck, you can order a custom mandrel
from the factory. Be sure to specify the caliber and bullet
diameter. Example: "Send undersize collet die mandrel
for 30/06 using a .308 bullet." There is a $5.00 charge.

 

[Mikecr]

There is a way to get more neck tension with greater interference fit (downsizing).
This is accomplished with a neck sizing length exceeding seated bullet bearing, or FL sizing of necks. The reason this causes more tension is the same reason I will never do it.

Here, when you seat bullet bearing partially into necks (not into neck shoulder junction), the bearing expands where it contacts, and your further length of downsized neck is left to bind the bullet bearing-base junction. That's a lot of grip there, and given that it's donut area with forces influenced by shoulder angles, there is a lot of variance to the tension provided with it. Heavy seating forces here too.

There are very few cartridges that benefit from this extreme neck tension so much as to remove tension variance from results. Maybe 6PPC, or 30BR, with competitive loads.
Small underbores running extreme pressures, well into diminished returns (which is also diminished influences).

There is only detriment in FL sizing of necks for other/hunting cartridges, running normal pressures with more & slower powder. The lower your operating pressures, the more neck tension matters. Actually, everything matters more & more with lower pressures.
Powder, powder amount, powder temperature, primer & striking, neck tension, case capacities, case body clearances, etc.
A reloading moron can order a turn key 30BR, and outshoot an expert reloader with a 308, at 300yds in. That's where this goes.

As far as seating bullet bearing into/through neck-shoulder junction,, what do you think that does for tension variance?
I will not do that either.

 

[woods]

You CAN adjust the length the Lee Collet sizes the neck

Put a washer around the case head on top of the shell holder and that will fool the Lee Collet

1 washer, 2 washers or different thickness of washer

 

[bigedp51]

I do not like Lee collet dies, every time I try to apply 25lbs of force the string breaks and the duct tape rips.

 

[Mikecr]

Good tip Woods.
Always some way to get what we need.