Berger VLD performance on bone question...

[bigngreen]

Steve makes a great point and one that I think Barnes has not figured out, don't shoot the min recommended twists or you may experience deflections on heavy game. The problem with the Barnes is it's to hard, I've dug a lot of them out of the front shoulder of an elk that just stopped, they blow open into a huge parachute shape but unless you have the momentum behind that large frontal area OR you shear of that frontal area you bullet will stop cold. I will ONLY shoot Steve and Brian's Hammer bullets if I'm shooting copper bullets, most impressive copper bullet out there on elk and I put them to the test where I can normally fail a Barnes or Cutting Edge and get a cold stop or deflection but the Hammers tracked perfectly through the animal while causing serious collateral damage!

I trouble shoot mechanical and electrical issues for a living, my natural bent is to try to figure out what an issue is. The easiest way to trouble shoot an issue is if I can recreate the issue, I've tried this multiple times with bullets, I've literally gotten lot # from guys who claim bullet failure on every shot and shot those same lots to try to figure out the issue, for me it's a big deal because I build rifles and many customers what my opinion on what to feed them and I don't care what brand it is they have to perform to my expectation.
I have not been able to recreate a blow up or pencil through issue shooting all my tags then having other guys shoot my rifle so using typical trouble shooting methodology if you can't recreate it using JUST the bullet then you have to look at other reasons, I can't get my hands on their rifle to shoot the same bullet so then you look at shot placement and to the best of everyones ability you can rule that out to some degree at least in a larger sample there are singular issues but were talking incidents where multiple bullets in a row fail.
The problem lies in that having an issue when taking an animal hurts the ego and its not taking an animal clean which I would hope everyone would be a little hurt over, dealing with it objectively and trying to figure out the real issue is usually not what people want to do. If a cup and core bullet blows up there are multiple things that could cause that bullet to be out of its operating zone, jackets being stressed by rough throat or over rev'ing with high velocity to name a coupe but this is not a bullet issue it's a rifle issue and to understand the core of the issue and the solution one can not just emotionally blame the easiest thing which is the bullet.
Penciling can happen for a lot of reasons as well, plugged tips, tips plugging with material on the animal and the bullet yawing or over turning to name the top few, some of that may be a manufacturing issue that we have addressed but to be honest while I tell everyone to check the tips I haven't checked a tip in years, my dad checks every one, and I've never personally had one pencil, to me the OTM design has proven more consistent that any other bullet I've shot that I'm not worried about that small chance that I pencil one which I'll just follow up with another and it's done.
I've seen elk with so much mud with water on them that it's like shooting through a brick before getting to hide, a bullet blowing up on that really isn't a failure of the bullet but a failure of shot choice or bullet choice, a bullet over turning and yawing may be a twist rate issue, again not really a bullet issue but a operator issue.

It's information and trouble shooting that is important to me not from a branding preference but from the stand point of my business and customer success as well as my own hunting, I started shooting OTM style bullet because the wheels were falling of what I was using and something had to change!!

 

[Pdvdh]

Nice information Steve and bigngreen.
Marshall (Matrix bullets) also posted on this Forum his experience and belief that the reliability of his bullets expanding on game was directly related to the size of the hole in the tip of his bullets. The larger the hole diameter, the more reliable the expansion. Same as Steve has found with his Hammer bullets. Marshall noted the conflict this posed to the quest for ever higher BC values. Bigger diameter hole = lower BC value.
elkaholic has expressed his suspicions that faster twist rates improve the reliability and terminal performance of hunting bullets. Same as Steve's findings. It takes a lot of time and testing to sort these things out. So it's nice when this information is shared.
I'll be adding increased twist rate to future barrel orders. Glad my .308 Krieger is a 9.5 twist. I ordered 9.5 because my prior order of a 10 twist from a different button-rifled barrel maker ended up being 10.5 twist. A strange reason for ordering 9.5. But Krieger did deliver a 9.5 twist.
Expanding bullets that full metal jacket thru a game animal ranks very high in the category of disappointing - for me. I'd prefer a misfire on large game lacking tooth and claw.

 

[the444shooter]

I like the performance I've experienced with Barnes (nowhere near what bigngreen has) and from what I've gathered they keep optimizing them to open at the velocities they're factory loading them for (.308 150gr TTSX was the example they showed in a video I watched) I like that I have a 90+% chance of a clean pass through with good enough expansion, and I've only recovered 2 bullets ever. I know that many people have fantastic results with Bergers, but for bone, I will continue to opt for a bullet with stouter construction, and I have yet to have a failure with Barnes, bone or not.

I'm also excited that guys like Steve have entered the fray, and is passionate about performance in all aspects of conceivable shooting scenarios (and available on here to have a dialog, too)

 

[bigngreen]

There is a breaking point with penetration on heavy bone like an elk shoulder, if you hit an elk close with enough velocity to either work with the weight or over come the resistance of that bone or shear the petals of and reduce the frontal diameter you'll penetrate and all is good. The Berger type bullet if shot in heavy for cal will roll back and lessen in diameter while still penetrating and mushrooming this creates HUGE penetration IF you have enough bullet. The easiest example of this is I've caught copper bullets in a steel plate literally half way through and next to it were little drill holes from Berger's and Matrix bullets, the copper bullets could not penetrate the steel the soft bullets we're blowing through. There is a tipping point for everything. The Hammers are a combination IMO, the best of both worlds, you get a bullet that will get out of it's own way to speak so it had the huge penetration but that also creates the wound channel and collateral damage of a more frangibles bullet.
Barnes lighter faster concept completely falls apart on real big game IMO, they are making heavier bullets but then you have too little of twist rate to keep them on track in the animal.
Of course this is all a mute point on deer which you can kill with pretty much anything you load.

 

[Rich Coyle]

bigngreen,

What is your experience with Nosler Partitions?

 

[bigngreen]

bigngreen,

What is your experience with Nosler Partitions?

Boom, dead!!

They were awesome when in a normal speed and range, I've seen them uncorked by super mag speeds and I've dug some out of elk that were shot way to far and you could have literally reloaded the bullet, no deformation at all.
I've picked so many partitions out of the of side of elk it's rediculous, they were the gold standard but they are a ballistic brick!!!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Boom, dead!!

They were awesome when in a normal speed and range, I've seen them uncorked by super mag speeds and I've dug some out of elk that were shot way to far and you could have literally reloaded the bullet, no deformation at all.
I've picked so many partitions out of the of side of elk it's rediculous, they were the gold standard but they are a ballistic brick!!!

Probably not from any yahoos herd shooting with grandpas 270 and some kentucky elevation I am sure...

 

[WildRose]

Nice information Steve and bigngreen.
Marshall (Matrix bullets) also posted on this Forum his experience and belief that the reliability of his bullets expanding on game was directly related to the size of the hole in the tip of his bullets. The larger the hole diameter, the more reliable the expansion. Same as Steve has found with his Hammer bullets. Marshall noted the conflict this posed to the quest for ever higher BC values. Bigger diameter hole = lower BC value.
elkaholic has expressed his suspicions that faster twist rates improve the reliability and terminal performance of hunting bullets. Same as Steve's findings. It takes a lot of time and testing to sort these things out. So it's nice when this information is shared.
I'll be adding increased twist rate to future barrel orders. Glad my .308 Krieger is a 9.5 twist. I ordered 9.5 because my prior order of a 10 twist from a different button-rifled barrel maker ended up being 10.5 twist. A strange reason for ordering 9.5. But Krieger did deliver a 9.5 twist.
Expanding bullets that full metal jacket thru a game animal ranks very high in the category of disappointing - for me. I'd prefer a misfire on large game lacking tooth and claw.

I'd say there's just no arguing the fact that twist rate and stability are big factors in terminal performance. We've all, or most all of us seen bullets keyhole on targets at one time or another and there's simply no possible way for a bullet that doesn't make solid contact with the tip first to perform as designed.

I've recovered a few over the years that obviously keyholed in for one reason or another, usually due to impacting grass, twigs, etc before contacting the target. Often those bullets will be bent like a banana when you find them and the paths they take through the animal are often completely erratic and unpredictable.

 

[WildRose]

Boom, dead!!

They were awesome when in a normal speed and range, I've seen them uncorked by super mag speeds and I've dug some out of elk that were shot way to far and you could have literally reloaded the bullet, no deformation at all.
I've picked so many partitions out of the of side of elk it's rediculous, they were the gold standard but they are a ballistic brick!!!

Great bullet on tough game to 300 yards or so but they were never designed for shooting long range.

 

[Rich Coyle]

Thanks for the reply.

I'm thinking for the first two or three decades of the existence of Partitions very few gave long range, or even 5-600 yards, at thought for hunting. I used to think 300 yards was long range.

 

[jlreff]

I know that our bullets are a different type of bullet but I think a lot of what I have learned from our testing translates to all bullets. There are two things that are essential to bullet terminal performance. The hollow point and the stability factor. The bigger the hollow point the more reliable it will be terminally. The higher the stability factor the better the terminal performance. The size of the hollow point is pretty easy to comprehend. We have determined that we are not able to produce a reliable bullet for hunting with a hollow point smaller than 1.5mm. We thought we had a good 1mm hp that worked well in media tests but when used on elk we were not happy with them and have now scrapped the idea.

Stability factor is not as easy to wrap your head around. Our testing has shown that a marginal stability factor less than 1.5sg will greatly increase the probability of bullet failure. The problem is, you can have stellar accuracy with marginal stability. This is where the bullet manufactures fall short. To my knowledge we are the only ones that talk about it. There are many bullets that are marketed to factory rifle shooters that are marginally stable in the factory twist. Particularly with the push for heavier higher bc bullets. The heavier for caliber a bullet gets the more twist it needs to be fully stable.

So if you think about it, all bullets are a hollow point of some kind and need hydraulics to enter the hp to make it expand outwardly. The small the hole the harder it is to get hydraulics into it. Add a little bit of yaw to the bullet and it makes the hp even smaller. Think of the bullet as a top spinning. Spinning fast it stays point true to flight. For terminal performance we need that point to stay true to flight after it makes contact. The moment that the bullet makes contact the rpm of the bullet drops due to the contact allowing the tip or yaw potentially before it has gathered enough hydraulics into the hp to cause outward expansion. The more marginal the stability of a bullet the sooner on impact it tips. The higher the stability the longer a bullet stays point oriented as it passes through the media.

From our testing, bullets used for hunting should be a minimum of 1.5sg and higher is better. With that said the more vld shaped a bullet gets the more important the stability gets.

Good shooting to all.

Steve

 

[jlreff]

That's what I'm trying to get at. Everybody wants a high b c bullet but factory rifles want stabalise them. That's the one thing Barnes does the test to see if the bullet will stabilize in a standard factory twist. Some others don't and people try to shoot them and they don't work well. The factory's need to start looking at new twist rates instead of using the old formulas. It just doesnt work with any of this new long range bullets out there.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

That's what I'm trying to get at. Everybody wants a high b c bullet but factory rifles want stabalise them. That's the one thing Barnes does the test to see if the bullet will stabilize in a standard factory twist. Some others don't and people try to shoot them and they don't work well. The factory's need to start looking at new twist rates instead of using the old formulas. It just doesnt work with any of this new long range bullets out there.

Be careful with thinking the Barnes bullets are tested to be fully stable in factory twist rates. Many that I have checked, particularly the ones that are relatively similar to lead core bullets for weight and caliber, are quite marginal for stability. All copper mono bullets have to be longer than the same weight lead core bullets of the similar design. Just physics, copper is less dense, and the only way to gain weight is to make them longer. Stability is a ratio of bullet length, weight, and rate of spin.

There are a couple of good places to check bullet stability of bullets. JBM Ballistics or the Berger site have stability calculators. You will need the dimensions of the bullet that you want to check.

Many bullets are marketed for factory common twist as a stable option. Remember that there is a big difference in stable for flight and stable for terminal performance. Accuracy can be very good with marginal stability. According to Litz the bc of the bullet will suffer if stability is less than 1.5sg.

You are right on the money with the factory rifles being slow for many of the heavy bullet being marketed. The .25's, the old .264's with 9" twist, many of the 7mm are 9.5" or 10", new Tikka 30's are 11". It is difficult to find dimensions on bullets let alone a recommendation of twist rate for a given bullet from the manufactures. It is a buyer beware market.

Steve

 

[bigngreen]

Barnes tests bumpkis IMO, they load some rounds at different velocity and shoot it into a large water tank then drop the bullets out the bottom and acting like that is relevant to hunting, it makes pretty bullet pictures but shooting into a water tank inches away from our muzzle has nothing to do with hunting. They are not correct on their twist rates, they do it just like many other manufactures. The two best bullet companies about twist rates are Hammer bullets and Berger, the guys at Hammer live in reality and shoot their own bullet and send bullets out and get results from real shooting and they know their twist rates not only from modeling but from shooting and paying attention to wound channels and bullet tracking in game.