Barnes LRX TTSX, which one??

[500yd]

Whats a t3? a t2? Do ya mean G3?

The unnofficial scoring guides use different nomenclature than the official B&C guides I assume in order to prevent confusion about who scored what and if the score is official B&C. For instance: Scoring Your Whitetail Buck

There aren't any bucks large enough where I hunt that would justify having an official scoring. So I use the unnoficial terms assuming folks here would know the difference, to avoid confusion. A lot of good that did...pfft. What's that saying? "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"? If you'd prefer I'lll use official B&C terminology when I talk about unofficial racks from now on. Seems counterproductive but I'll do so if it avoids confusion.

I'm starting to get the idea that I may be a bit too technically oriented person for this forum...

 

[Beng]

I think the Berger VLDs are probably some of the best hunting bullets around especially for long range work. Anyone who can get a > .5 BC from a .243 bullet is doing some amazing work. And they just get better climbing the caliber ladder.

Just rethorical because we're in a Barnes thread, I didn't mean to make assumptions on your opinion or imply anything.

Those lightweight copper(alloy) bullets are nice for smaller catridges at short range, but at extended ranges you just don't gain anything by using them.
I understand your comparison to a .308 Win, but why should one use a .300 WSM and limit it's performance to .308 standards?
Energy is useful as long as the choosen bullet apllies it effectively.
More energy is better than less energy.
The sole reasoning against more energy and it's preservation by efficient bullets, is rifle handiness and portability in relation to recoil, imo.

But perhaps that's just a german fetish for efficient overkill

 

[500yd]

EPIC BUST!!! Sorry couldnt wait for maxi to get home from school when I saw the link I'll post at the bottom. So you discovered JBM 3 days ago and now you are an "INTERNET BALLISTICIAN"? WOW! You learn quick huh?

I find it difficult to understand how one human being can treat another with respect while trying to have an honest discussion on the merits, while the other is completely uncivil and acts like a child...

Yes, I discovered JBM three days or so ago. I got tired of doing calculations "by hand" and using the various Excel tables that didn't include the bullets I wanted load data for. You have incorrectly assumed once again, this time that I just started learning about ballistics 3 days ago because you saw my post asking about calculator software.

I'll snip the rest of the garbage below which isn't worth my response.

 

[Beng]

By the way, if your looking for data on bullets (not load data) then take a look at "Applied Ballistics for Longrange Shooting" by Brian Litz.
He compiled a good list of measured bcs and dimensions of many bullets of the major manufacturers and wrote a ~290 page summary of exterior ballistics.
It's the best investment in shooting literature one could make I think.
For Christmas I will get his 2nd book

ps: link

 

[toddc]

I've never taken a running shot freehand outside PBR, which is probably why I've never missed one. On the flip side, when I was young I missed plenty of long (for me at that time) stationary shots due to misjudging range. So don't think I'm saying I've never missed shots. Proof point...

Todd since you like attacking me so much you'll get a huge laugh out of this. Just two seasons ago I missed three successive shots at a standing doe at less than than 150 yds, prone, with the bipod. She didn't spook until after the 3rd. As she ran off over the terrace and I unglued myself from the scope, cursing and scratching me head, I saw the clump of field grass on fire 6 inches in front of the muzzle. **** happens--to everyone--now and then.

When I build a nest I always tamp/pull grass in my FOF arc. This was a drop-n-shoot scenario while I was walking, and the grass didn't seem very tall as I dropped down...

I dont mean to attack you but man it comes down to people taking bad advice because they read it on the internet. 15 bull elk shot in the shoulder next year with what I FEEL (even if Im wrong) is an inadequate round that might get away makes me sick. 1 animal is too much. I feel my personal combo of a 30" edge with 300s is a bare minimum so maybe Im a tad nutty. Hell I shoot prairie dogs with it.
Honestly though, I (and many others) have explored the x family at length in dead stuff and it will give you a little extra edge over a more traditional slug but its not a cure all for a good sd and momentum. FPE is one way to measure performance, other methods such as taylors and momentum calculators will dramatically favor the heavier slug. Thing is boss I have killed deer with overly light barnes and they are a deadly bullet. But they are not atom bombs either. I would call them the best bullet out there for using too small of a slug. But its still too small.
I guess we can agree to disagree, stay friends and let the folks reading figger it out.
If ya wanna come whack a KS buck next year get a tag and holler at me. We have some decent bucks lol. They dont run much either. Which is great cuz I suck at offhand ....and running.

 

[500yd]

Just rethorical because we're in a Barnes thread, I didn't mean to make assumptions on your opinion or imply anything.

I'm not in the tank for Barnes or any other bullet maker. I just like their .30 110gr TTSX due to the ultra flat shooting it can bring to .30 rifles, and most importantly, with good terminal performance on medium game. Prior to this premium bullet all I found in this weight class were exploding varmint bullets. IMO, this bullet is a game changer for many whitetail hunters.

Those lightweight copper(alloy) bullets are nice for smaller catridges at short range, but at extended ranges you just don't gain anything by using them.

Yeah, the TTSX 110 is a flat base bullet and sheds velocity pretty quickly. And in this case I wouldn't try it on elk past 500.

I understand your comparison to a .308 Win, but why should one use a .300 WSM and limit it's performance to .308 standards?

The TTSX 110 round in essence converts a 300 WSM into a 22-250 WRT trajectory, and a 308 WRT energy. We're tading energy for trajectory.

Energy is useful as long as the choosen bullet apllies it effectively.
More energy is better than less energy.

Depends on your goals and what you're hunting. Hitting a whitetail in the chest while over gunned at short range, with say ~4000 ft-lbs at 100 yds (300 RUM 200gr), would just make one bloody mess to deal with. The same round at 700 yds would probably give a relatively clean kill on an elk.

The sole reasoning against more energy and it's preservation by efficient bullets, is rifle handiness and portability in relation to recoil, imo.

I've made the case here for trading max downrange energy primarily for much better 'short' range trajectory, for a combined deer/elk round, optimized more for deer, but good enough for elk for the specified max range. Less kick and fewer turret adjustments is a bonus. Slightly less bullet cost.

I think some here, not you, are under the mistaken assumption that I'm evangelizing the 110 TTSX/300 WSM combo as "the ultimate elk round" which couldn't be farther from the truth. If the OP was primarily hunting elk I'd have never recommended this round. Dual use rounds often incur compromises. This one is no different.

But perhaps that's just a german fetish for efficient overkill

In this case I thought it better to shoot flatter, spare the shoulder and the wallet on deer, but still have just enough to put an elk down on occasion. If you design for primarily elk, 200 gr rds do a lot of damage on deer, your shoulder, and your wallet, if you hunt deer more often than elk.

 

[Beng]

I think you're evangelizing trajectory, which became an anachronism when reliable laser range finder became available to the public.
Today you don't have to worry about misjudging the distance to your target, misjudging the wind is the main concern and minimizing the effects of a faulty wind call is much more important than being able to ignore a bit of drop.

.30 Caliber is just not right for flat trajectories.
If someone wants ultra flat trajectory, a 6.5mm STW or similar would be the way to go.
The .300 WSM doesn't have the case capacity to push ballisticly efficient bullets to the speeds required.
The terminal ballistic short comings of light for caliber bullets on heavy game were mentioned several times by hunters with proven record early in this thread.

If one plans to hunt elk then there is just no reason to use an inferior load.
The heavy Barne's bullets will kill deer just as fine as elk and concerning meat damage at short range, in such an occasion one shouldn't shoot the shoulder anyway.

 

[500yd]

Wait...I think I heard a hatchet being buried below. Make that two. Thonk. Always a good sound.

I dont mean to attack you but man it comes down to people taking bad advice because they read it on the internet.

Maybe that's my mistake for assuming the audience was strictly members of this forum. Yes, people do Google, find information, and then use it inappropriately sometimes. So if there are such folks out there I apologize for promoting something that may get them in trouble. For folks who already have some requisite knowledge, I don't think my load recommendation is bad advice. The round is simply unproven as of yet, as far as we know here, on elk. I think I made a convicing case for its capability, with ballistics and comparison to that of known good elk loads. It may turn out that it doesn't work well at 500 yds. But the data says it will.

15 bull elk shot in the shoulder next year with what I FEEL (even if Im wrong) is an inadequate round that might get away makes me sick. 1 animal is too much.

Absolutely agreed. Around here you'd get a different opinion WRT white tails. Most farmers here would like to as many killed each year as possible, no matter the suffering, due to crop damage. I hear of losses of multiples of $10K for single farmers, given current corn prices.

I feel my personal combo of a 30" edge with 300s is a bare minimum so maybe Im a tad nutty. Hell I shoot prairie dogs with it.

Not at all nutty. Well, maybe a little given the prarie dog comment. How do you keep count with no carcasses left, just splatered parts?

Seriously, you use what works for you, what you're comfortable with, as does everyone else. Myself, I've always had the philosophy "do the most with the least" to get the job done, especially when it comes to $$, and doing everything myself. I have many hobbies and not enough cash to spread amongst them. Which is why I shoot an excellent old rifle given to me over two decades ago, yes with 10+ year old $90 optic, and a $100 replacement stock I finished myself saving $150. When I say "finish" that inluded inletting and free floating. And no I didn't use Krylon, but Valspar poly-- two cans of it--anticipating field abuse. I even built a custom swivel mount for my benchrest click leg Harris bipod, out of "junk" lying around in the garage. Saved me $75-100. And it's stronger, has zero play/slop, and has more range of motion than any off the shelf model. Maybe not as "pretty", but beauty is skin deep. I design for function over fashion, always. Which is why I shot the stock after minimal sanding instead of the 37 (exaggeration) step sanding process Boyd's recommended. I bought the stock for the thumbhole which is 1000% better for prone shooting. In my case the poly is to protect the laminated wood more than make it pretty. I've already banged it up a bit. I have much pride in this weapon as I built it myself, sans forging the working parts. Ok, see for yourselves:

A few more pics here on my web server if interested:
Custom .308 Winchester Rem 788 action
Click the first one and it blows up, controls below for forward/back/slideshow/etc

Honestly though, I (and many others) have explored the x family at length in dead stuff and it will give you a little extra edge over a more traditional slug but its not a cure all for a good sd and momentum. FPE is one way to measure performance, other methods such as taylors and momentum calculators will dramatically favor the heavier slug. Thing is boss I have killed deer with overly light barnes and they are a deadly bullet. But they are not atom bombs either. I would call them the best bullet out there for using too small of a slug. But its still too small.
I guess we can agree to disagree, stay friends and let the folks reading figger it out.

Sounds good. Like I said I wasn't touting the 300 WSM/110 TTX as the perfect elk round, but simply as a dual use round adequate for elk in proper hands. My commens WRT to me using the .308 Win/110 TTSX on elk were not a suggestion that others try that. Without perfect conditions that's asking for disaster. I thought I was pretty clear on that one. And I wouldn't take a 500 yard shot on elk with this round without perfect atmospheric conditions, etc. I wouldn't hesitate at 300 or less.

If ya wanna come whack a KS buck next year get a tag and holler at me. We have some decent bucks lol. They dont run much either. Which is great cuz I suck at offhand ....and running.

The invite is gracious, thank you. A buddy of mine moved to Illinois in '09 and didn't come back to hunt until this season. Out of state tags are $225. Probably similar for KS. If I'm gonna peel lots of bills outta the wallet for a hunt, it'll have to be something "exotic", i.e. not available here, no guide fees, etc. I'm not a "rich guy", which is why I shoot the rifle above instead of spending a couple grand building my dream rifle.

Hell, I'm too cheap to re-tube this one. I've got a bunch of pretty bad rust pitting (I won't go into the why) on the front end of the tube. So I spent a day reading up on parkerizing. I can do it for about $15 for solution etc, after borrowing a blaster. I'll be doing it soon, barrel and receiver, sans bore and chamber. Should come out nice. I'll post pics (in a new thread) when complete.

 

[500yd]

I think you're evangelizing trajectory, which became an anachronism when reliable laser range finder became available to the public.
Today you don't have to worry about misjudging the distance to your target, misjudging the wind is the main concern and minimizing the effects of a faulty wind call is much more important than being able to ignore a bit of drop.

I'm apparently skewed by my experience. In the area where I've hunted since age 16 (41 now) one most often simply doesn't have time to throw range finder glass on the animal, bring the rifle up, click turrets...the deer is already moving again, into the timber, brush, or behind a terrace, into the ditch, etc. When someone offers a scope with a built in rangefinder for a reasonable price, that means under $300 around here, for those features, then having a flat shooting round won't be as important. If I have high wind speed at anything other than 180 degrees front or back I simply won't shoot over 200 yards or so. If it's high speed it's always severly gusty out there due to the terrain and storm front dynamics. It seems it's only constant when it's a breeze and weather is warm, 10 mph or less, which is easily managed.

.30 Caliber is just not right for flat trajectories.

The TTSX 110 changes that game for intermediate range. 3500 FPS from a 308 and 3800+ from 300 WSM. Well over 4000 with a RUM. All three shoot as flat or flatter than a 22-250 to 500 yds. For long range trajectory, no, the 110 isn't remotely suitable due to the flat base and .295 BC. It sheds speed and energy relatively quickly. Again, the OP asked for up to 500yds.

If someone wants ultra flat trajectory, a 6.5mm STW or similar would be the way to go.

Not if one already has a .30. Lighter bullets are a tad bit cheaper than new rifles.

The .300 WSM doesn't have the case capacity to push ballisticly efficient bullets to the speeds required.

It doesn't have to if you're not shooting game past 500 yds. Yes, this is LRH, but let's face it, most engagements are at much lesser distances. And the criteria of the OP was up to 500 yds, not 1000.

The terminal ballistic short comings of light for caliber bullets on heavy game were mentioned several times by hunters with proven record early in this thread.

No, not just low SD, but light rounds period, was their opinion, IIRC. That's why the video I posted of the gal taking that cow at 688 yds with the .243 Win caused such an uproar. And the 105 VLD she used is decidedly "heavy for caliber" for a .243 Winchester. Factory loads top out at 100gr.

With due respect to their experience, do note that the guys of the opposite opinion of mine are all shooting man portable cannons and 200gr or larger slugs, weapons and rounds capable of killing not only elk, but any animal in North America, including grizzlies and polar bear for Pete's sake. If a girl can kill an elk with a .243 Winchester at ~700 yds, that leaves a helluva lot of room for calibers and slugs in between for work at 500 or less. And I don't think anyone would argue that the bulk of elk harvested each year in this country are taken by mortal shooters with mortal guns and bullets of 180gr or less, in 25-06, 270, 308, 30-06, 7mm-mag, etc. And many of these are shooting old school cheap non boat tail factory soft points.

Regarding "light for caliber" a 150gr TTSX, 155 VLD, or similar, from a 300 RUM would surely be considered by these same folks as such. But I don't think any of them would say it won't kill any elk at 500yds any day of the week and twice on Sunday. If they do you should reconsider the value you attach to their experience.

If one plans to hunt elk then there is just no reason to use an inferior load.

Inferior to what? Todd's 338 Edge? Everything on this forum is inferior to that mini-howitzer. gun)I think "adequate" and "optimal" are where this discussion is, not killing an elk and felling a small tree behind it.

The heavy Barne's bullets will kill deer just as fine as elk and concerning meat damage at short range, in such an occasion one shouldn't shoot the shoulder anyway.

Who enjoys heavy recoil if they can have lighter recoil and still put the animal down?

Oh, sorry for the confusion. When I mentioned "bloody mess" I was referring to field gutting, not meat damage. It's not an issue if air temp is above 25 or so, and the water and soap in my pack are still liquids. But on those 20 degree or lower days an ocean of blood in the cavity makes cleaning up a PITA, especially if I forget to pack the dish washing gloves, which I prefer not using if I can avoid it. I've tried 'wipes' but they don't work so hot in the cold either. I'm open to better ideas on this subject. I got spoiled hunting the private side of the timber for over two decades. We kept all our field dressing gear/supplies in the pickup and always drove to the carcass. Backpacking everything in/out on the public side sucks. Mom hunts as well and she's 69 so I pack some of her gear as well. Not meaning to complain. I love it that she still hunts. Just letting y'all know how it is.

 

[Beng]

Inferior to what? Todd's 338 Edge? Everything on this forum is inferior to that mini-howitzer. I think "adequate" and "optimal" are where this discussion is, not killing an elk and felling a small tree behind it.

Inferior to loads using heavier bullets in the same case.
Inferior in wind drift and energy retention.
There is no use to load a cartridge to less than it's capability.
If a gun recoils to hard, use an effective muzzle brake or a smaller caliber with heavy for caliber bullets.
.30 caliber magnums rarely recoil too hard despite using an effective muzzle brake.
Smaller caliber doesn't mean pea shooter though.
A .243 using a 105gr bullet is marginal at best, but that has been said time and time again.
If recoil bothers you, then use a 6.5mm caliber with 130-140gr bullets for long range and 155gr bullets for short range work.

At short ranges you don't need to measure every deer, just get accustomed to the area you're hunting in and measure the distance to several reference points.
If you have to be fast use your reticule for compensation.
Shooting moving animals at more than 60m is an unnecessary risk imo though.

A nice rifle you have there

 

[105grvld]

Honestly people!! All this is great info but everyone has completely forgotten about the cheap cup and core bullets made by Hornady like the SST and ELDX!! These are all you need to kill out to 1000 yards and more. The forums are full of people taking mature bull elk at anywhere for 800-1400 yards with a 143eldx bullet fired from a 6.5 creedmoor that kills out to any distance you want, just aim and shoot and it falls dead!

I am glad to see some people are still about using premium bullets that is for sure. I use the 175gr lrx out of the 300 win mag at 3200 ft per sec from a 26" barrel and it hits like thors hammer and hand has completely penetrated a elk length wise at 500+ yards with a facing shot. the bullet was not recovered and the elk never took a step. They are great bullets if you want game on the ground period....