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accuracy awp ,schmidt and bender take a dive
- Thread starter Gerald89
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Pete Lincoln
Well-Known Member
"Pete,
The more you dog Nightforce, the less reputable you become in my opinion. You just begin to sound like someone with a chip on their shoulder. Much like the many people who rag on Mathews bows.
Kyle "
Kyle, i don't give a rats fart what anybody thinks about my S&B rantings. I'm once bitten twice shy and i've looked through enough scopes to know what i'm talking about. But i'll sell Leupold and nightforce if thats what my customers want. but when the customer come back and says the darn thing broke, i will say i told you so.
buy once buy right buy S&B.
Pete
The more you dog Nightforce, the less reputable you become in my opinion. You just begin to sound like someone with a chip on their shoulder. Much like the many people who rag on Mathews bows.
Kyle "
Kyle, i don't give a rats fart what anybody thinks about my S&B rantings. I'm once bitten twice shy and i've looked through enough scopes to know what i'm talking about. But i'll sell Leupold and nightforce if thats what my customers want. but when the customer come back and says the darn thing broke, i will say i told you so.
buy once buy right buy S&B.
Pete
JR
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
"Pete,
The more you dog Nightforce, the less reputable you become in my opinion. You just begin to sound like someone with a chip on their shoulder. Much like the many people who rag on Mathews bows.
Kyle "
Kyle, i don't give a rats fart what anybody thinks about my S&B rantings. I'm once bitten twice shy and i've looked through enough scopes to know what i'm talking about. But i'll sell Leupold and nightforce if thats what my customers want. but when the customer come back and says the darn thing broke, i will say i told you so.
buy once buy right buy S&B.
Pete
[/ QUOTE ]
Good to see you're home..Still wet as a virgin on prom night here..Soppin'..
Don't fret Red, am sure he means well...Southfork..
Pete has about as big a chip on the shoulder as I do..Been around long enough, it's a growth more than a chip...We work with ultimate shooting equipment for a living, and see more equipment than most of ya'll on a daily basis. I disagree with Pete on the Nightforce quality for some applications, as his adopted country's f-class team uses NXS, but only because S&B are hard headed enough to think what they have on offer is what we want..Pete, at least Nightfarce listens to the long range hunting and shooting crowd, and adapts..Schmidt is getting better, but aren't leading the charge by any means....
JR
"Pete,
The more you dog Nightforce, the less reputable you become in my opinion. You just begin to sound like someone with a chip on their shoulder. Much like the many people who rag on Mathews bows.
Kyle "
Kyle, i don't give a rats fart what anybody thinks about my S&B rantings. I'm once bitten twice shy and i've looked through enough scopes to know what i'm talking about. But i'll sell Leupold and nightforce if thats what my customers want. but when the customer come back and says the darn thing broke, i will say i told you so.
buy once buy right buy S&B.
Pete
[/ QUOTE ]
Good to see you're home..Still wet as a virgin on prom night here..Soppin'..
Don't fret Red, am sure he means well...Southfork..
Pete has about as big a chip on the shoulder as I do..Been around long enough, it's a growth more than a chip...We work with ultimate shooting equipment for a living, and see more equipment than most of ya'll on a daily basis. I disagree with Pete on the Nightforce quality for some applications, as his adopted country's f-class team uses NXS, but only because S&B are hard headed enough to think what they have on offer is what we want..Pete, at least Nightfarce listens to the long range hunting and shooting crowd, and adapts..Schmidt is getting better, but aren't leading the charge by any means....
JR
Pete Lincoln
Well-Known Member
Hey JR, so it still raining eh? makes me wonder that the Jocks don't have skaley skin..
Well see if S&B had listend to yours truely 10 years ago then things might be different. I'm leading the charge for them at the mo, and i ain't bloody getting paid for it.. its the "men in loden coats" thats the problem. ( market research lot) you know the problem mate, you deal with it every day, some folks are boffins (and right anoracks at that) and some folk are businessmen, visionists and leaders who know which way the rabbit runs. Its all part of thinking out side the box.
Sup me a pint of that belhaven beer will you, i quite like that.. lookin forward to the IWA..
Pete
Well see if S&B had listend to yours truely 10 years ago then things might be different. I'm leading the charge for them at the mo, and i ain't bloody getting paid for it.. its the "men in loden coats" thats the problem. ( market research lot) you know the problem mate, you deal with it every day, some folks are boffins (and right anoracks at that) and some folk are businessmen, visionists and leaders who know which way the rabbit runs. Its all part of thinking out side the box.
Sup me a pint of that belhaven beer will you, i quite like that.. lookin forward to the IWA..
Pete
Hi Pete,
Would that be any particular boffin or boffins, possibly astro-physical type boffins.
The problem with S&B as you say is the market research lot. Why? Because when they go for lunch what do you guess they talk about, I am guessing golf, football or going to the garden center at the weekend, but not scopes, how many of them shoot or have an interest in the sport. If a percentage of employees actually have an interest in the sport (whatever it is) then it becomes easier for a company to see, respond and lead market trends. Lucky S&B have you to fill that void (I mean that).
I did email S&B to the effect of what they lacked.
David.
Would that be any particular boffin or boffins, possibly astro-physical type boffins.
The problem with S&B as you say is the market research lot. Why? Because when they go for lunch what do you guess they talk about, I am guessing golf, football or going to the garden center at the weekend, but not scopes, how many of them shoot or have an interest in the sport. If a percentage of employees actually have an interest in the sport (whatever it is) then it becomes easier for a company to see, respond and lead market trends. Lucky S&B have you to fill that void (I mean that).
I did email S&B to the effect of what they lacked.
David.
Pete Lincoln
Well-Known Member
David, S&B have hunters working there. traditional hunting in germany requires a loden coat, and an 8x56 scope. Attitudes are hard to change, you should have heared the comments from the 3 German guys we had with us in Scotland when they saw my McMillan stocked, border fluted barreled, Balnit C coated, threaded, brugger and thomet moderated, sniper scoped and bipod equiped 30-06 rifle, and my mate Jon's "similar" reflex equiped 300wm. " Well that ain't hunting with such a rifle" was the comments. sure, you could give both rifles to any Military sniper and he could go directly into combat with no reservations what so ever (exept Jon's NXS (couldn't resist that)) my reply was, well sitting up a tree waiting for some animal to walk past is hunting then is it? It took quite a long explination that with such a rifle, we still prefered to stalk close, but with pressure to achieve cull numbers, it was nessecary to be able to take deer accurately from 5 to 500m. I managed to convince 2 of the 3.
And your right, whats missing at S&B is a guy who has actively used a sniper scope in combat, who has actively shot competetively and who is in touch with the current trends in shooting sports. And yes i've answered a lot of questions for them on these areas, i've got thier technical guy on side and i've got the sales guy convinced, ive even got Hans Bender convinced. Its just due to the current recession, the market research (gentlemen in loden coats) are reluctant to try something out side of the box. I'm working hard on convincing em and i'm getting some where.
and thanks for your support mate.,.
Pete
And your right, whats missing at S&B is a guy who has actively used a sniper scope in combat, who has actively shot competetively and who is in touch with the current trends in shooting sports. And yes i've answered a lot of questions for them on these areas, i've got thier technical guy on side and i've got the sales guy convinced, ive even got Hans Bender convinced. Its just due to the current recession, the market research (gentlemen in loden coats) are reluctant to try something out side of the box. I'm working hard on convincing em and i'm getting some where.
and thanks for your support mate.,.
Pete
bcraft1111
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2005
- Messages
- 48
Well I guess I will speak my part as well!
I saw all the comments on this forum about the NXS scopes and figured I would give one a try on a new rifle to save a few $ over the S&B. I shoot with a S&B PM II 4x16x50 on a Lazz Warbird
I put a 8x32x56 NXS with the NP-R2 Reticle on a 300 wsm from GA precision. My first thoughts were that I would like it.
But for hunting Whitetail deer in Mississippi it still leaves a lot to be desired. I fount it hard to see the reticle in a low lite situation without turning on the lighted reticle. Even in early evening shooting I found it to be hard to see.
I found that when sighting in the Night force scope at 100 yards for example. It may be set on the second revolution or on the 2 line of the turret and if someone had been looking at the scope and changed the turret setting that I had to make sure it was on the 2 line again, Just 1 more thing to have to check when a 150 class Buck steps into the shooting lane. On my S&B I set the scope and set the turret to 0 that is it. No way to go past 0. I can just tell Murphy and his Law to go away.
As for Clarity or Contrast I feel that having hunted with both of these scopes that the NF I had was Lacking in this department. The S&B was far better in the late evening shooting than the NF. I know what you are thinking, I am not comparing Apples to Apples a 32 power VS. a 16 but I would set them on the same power and still a big difference in the evening when most deer step out.
So with that said I took off the NF and traded it in this week on a New S&B and feel much more prepared for this hunting season.
This is just the thoughts from a deer hunter! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
I saw all the comments on this forum about the NXS scopes and figured I would give one a try on a new rifle to save a few $ over the S&B. I shoot with a S&B PM II 4x16x50 on a Lazz Warbird
I put a 8x32x56 NXS with the NP-R2 Reticle on a 300 wsm from GA precision. My first thoughts were that I would like it.
But for hunting Whitetail deer in Mississippi it still leaves a lot to be desired. I fount it hard to see the reticle in a low lite situation without turning on the lighted reticle. Even in early evening shooting I found it to be hard to see.
I found that when sighting in the Night force scope at 100 yards for example. It may be set on the second revolution or on the 2 line of the turret and if someone had been looking at the scope and changed the turret setting that I had to make sure it was on the 2 line again, Just 1 more thing to have to check when a 150 class Buck steps into the shooting lane. On my S&B I set the scope and set the turret to 0 that is it. No way to go past 0. I can just tell Murphy and his Law to go away.
As for Clarity or Contrast I feel that having hunted with both of these scopes that the NF I had was Lacking in this department. The S&B was far better in the late evening shooting than the NF. I know what you are thinking, I am not comparing Apples to Apples a 32 power VS. a 16 but I would set them on the same power and still a big difference in the evening when most deer step out.
So with that said I took off the NF and traded it in this week on a New S&B and feel much more prepared for this hunting season.
This is just the thoughts from a deer hunter! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
G
Guest
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Pete
What is this ZERO SHIFT thing you brought up, do you have a link to more detail on this issue?
What is this ZERO SHIFT thing you brought up, do you have a link to more detail on this issue?
FatBoy...
Well-Known Member
I had a 3.5x15x50NXS that would track very erraticlly. Over-correction for click value mostly, and a windage shift to the right when bringing elevation down. It took two trips back to Nightforce, but they made good one it and the new one has worked flawlessly for the last 18 months.
I would buy another Nightforce if the price was right, but it would get box tested at least twice a year.
I have two leupolds in 1000y service right now. A 24x br and a 8.5x24x50LR M1. Both have proven to be excellent for my needs and track very well.
If S&B was reasonable with their prices, I would have to take a look at them. It's my understanding that they have a new long range scope in the works. Something along the lines of a 5.5x35x50, with the big tube. I haven't seen it yet, but there was talk of it at the F class world championships in South Africa. That would be a sweet piece, but I'd have to sell a car to buy it.
Maybe S&B should start up an assmebly plant here in the US. That might get the price down to the $1200 mark. Still to much, but workable.
Chris...
I would buy another Nightforce if the price was right, but it would get box tested at least twice a year.
I have two leupolds in 1000y service right now. A 24x br and a 8.5x24x50LR M1. Both have proven to be excellent for my needs and track very well.
If S&B was reasonable with their prices, I would have to take a look at them. It's my understanding that they have a new long range scope in the works. Something along the lines of a 5.5x35x50, with the big tube. I haven't seen it yet, but there was talk of it at the F class world championships in South Africa. That would be a sweet piece, but I'd have to sell a car to buy it.
Maybe S&B should start up an assmebly plant here in the US. That might get the price down to the $1200 mark. Still to much, but workable.
Chris...
Pete Lincoln
Well-Known Member
Hi Chris, good to see you still kicking buddy, say hi to the missus from mine and if you get a trip organised to the fatherland i'll show you all the S&B's you want to see..
thats one of the issues i was on about. repeatability of the turrets, ive heared of many NXS and Leupolds with non repeatable turrets, ive not heraed of any S&B PMII's with the same problem, i have heared of a PMII with repeatable, but not what the click value should be adjustment, which suggested to me a metric engraved moa adjustment.
In addition.
There is an inherant problem in all 2nd focal plain scopes, it is to do with the way the scope is built and the position, within the mechanical internals of the scope. as you wind up the magnification, the possition of the reticle within the actual scope moves, this is why you see no apparent size increase or decrease in the reticle, it moves in relationship to the possition of your eye and to the lenses front and rear.
the tracking of this movement is only as good as the machining and fit of the parts which interact with each other to allow this movement, tollerances, in materials, machining and assembly in this area will see you with a different zero from lets say 6x to 14x.
on a 1st focal plain scope, the reticle stays in 1 possition, other parts move when you up and down the x value, which is why the reticle apparently changes size (it doesn't realy change size, at least not in relation to the size of the target). the retciel is fixed withing the elevation and windage adjustable internals.
if you like, a 1st focal plain reticle is adjsutable through 2 axis. up down, left right.
a 2nd focal plain is adjustable through 3 axis, up down, left right back and forth.
the more directions of adjustment, the more the chance of inaccuracies.
cheers Pete
thats one of the issues i was on about. repeatability of the turrets, ive heared of many NXS and Leupolds with non repeatable turrets, ive not heraed of any S&B PMII's with the same problem, i have heared of a PMII with repeatable, but not what the click value should be adjustment, which suggested to me a metric engraved moa adjustment.
In addition.
There is an inherant problem in all 2nd focal plain scopes, it is to do with the way the scope is built and the position, within the mechanical internals of the scope. as you wind up the magnification, the possition of the reticle within the actual scope moves, this is why you see no apparent size increase or decrease in the reticle, it moves in relationship to the possition of your eye and to the lenses front and rear.
the tracking of this movement is only as good as the machining and fit of the parts which interact with each other to allow this movement, tollerances, in materials, machining and assembly in this area will see you with a different zero from lets say 6x to 14x.
on a 1st focal plain scope, the reticle stays in 1 possition, other parts move when you up and down the x value, which is why the reticle apparently changes size (it doesn't realy change size, at least not in relation to the size of the target). the retciel is fixed withing the elevation and windage adjustable internals.
if you like, a 1st focal plain reticle is adjsutable through 2 axis. up down, left right.
a 2nd focal plain is adjustable through 3 axis, up down, left right back and forth.
the more directions of adjustment, the more the chance of inaccuracies.
cheers Pete
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