7mm mag and bergers for canadian game

[Lapua guy]

Lord Kirby
RESPONSIBLE??? Give me a break. I think I have finally figured you out. Nothing is good enough for you unless it's a MAGNUM. You say I may be missing something upstairs because of my experience with a 6mmx284 on elk? Well, I say you are lacking something downstairs because you have to have a Magnum and a bonded bullet. You know nothing about me or my experience. You don't know how many elk I have seen ethically killed with a 6mmx284 in the last 10 years. Trust me buddy, it's been a lot!! Where are all your facts that you keep running your mouth about? They are nothing but your opinion and since you build guns you feel people should interpret them as facts. Hogwash!! Don't keep telling everyone about it show us. Show us the tests you have performed and the results from them. I have never taken an unethical shot in the field, nor have I ever lost an animal due to wounding it with a VLD bullet. YOU are the one that will lead people to wounding aninmals with your MAGNUM banter. People listen to what you have to say and go out and buy the biggest, baddest, whiz giz they can find and take it hunting. They can't shoot the rifle without squinting their eyes and jerking the trigger, but by god, That's what Lord Kirby says it takes to be a responsible hunter. I can see that by reading your posts that you don't believe anyone knows anything about anything unless it is posted by you. Keep running your mouth as there several people out there that are figuring out where NOT to have a gun built. I am sure by all the posts you have hear the customers are just pouring in for a big bad MAGNUM and a $.02 cent education.

My hunt is scheduled for September. Please check back with me then. Between now and then I will be trying to figure out what to use.... a 7mm with a JLK 180 or perhaps a 6.5-06AI and a 140 JLK. Please don't offer your opinion on what you think I should use as I already know that by thinking of using either of them, I am just Bat S*!t crazy.

Lord Kirby, nice.

 

[eddybo]

I have a lot of experiance with the bergers and like them for whitetails and antelope. I want something a little tougher for larger game. Just because you have a rifle capable of long range and plan on shooting an animal at long range does not mean that your shot at a trophy is going to be further than 30 feet. I will take a 30 foot shot on a whitetail with a 168 or 180 berger in a 7mm with a WSM. I would probably pass on an elk unless standing exactly broadside. We all want those broadside shots but sometimes the animals do not cooperate. If I was spending 10K on a hunt I would forego a little BC for a tougher bullet. I have shot whotetails from nearly stem to stern with a 180 7mm Begrer at 300 plus yards but have also seen them penetrate less that 20 inches on very close shots. 20 inches sounds like a lot until your trying to shoot through a big grass filled paunch to get to lungs.

 

[Scot E]

I will repeat my point, if you do not know exactly the type of hunting you will be doing, I would recommend a bullet that will get you through the mud and blood and guts at any possible range.

I think this is the important point that needs to get out to new members to this site and was the main point Kirby was trying to get across from the beginning, if one reads his posts with any neutrality.

The reality is that most hunters, and likely most new guys to this forum, are likely of the mindset that they want to get into this long range hunting thing but in no way are ready to sell out completely to the old style of hunting where they shoot a critter that happens to run in front of them or that they happen to sneak up on. For the inexperienced it is easy to assume things that aren't reality when watching LRH on Carlock's videos or the BOTW or Long Range Pursuit shows where they only setup for long range shots.

I happen to be one of those guys. There are times when I do purposefully setup for a long range shot but the reality is if a big boy stepped out in front of me at 50 yards I would have a very hard time not pulling the trigger. I need to be fully aware that the "grenade effect" that works so well from the bergers at distance may have the potential to work against me in the above scenario. Respect for our quarry demands we know the parameters involved.

Also, many guys that are used to using ammo that will penetrate through everything at any angle needs to be educated to the fact that the typical LR bullets may not oblige. So if they are used to blowing through bone and tissue at severe quartering to/away angles then they DO need to be educated that bergers and other similar bullets may not be the best option, or that they will need to change their methods of take to shots that provide a better vitals first hit scenario.

It is also a very valid point that newer LR shooters may understand the benefit of shooting magnum cartridges, ie less TOF means less range error and wind drift, but may not understand that bullets are designed to perform within a certain velocity range and that it is important to know if your bullet falls within acceptable parameters.

I am not sure how one can argue Kirby's points on this stuff but maybe I am missing something.

Finally as far as the "proof" is concerned, I would encourage you to go back through all the posts that Kirby has posted here over the years. His posts are full of the facts, and proof and experienced needed to be able to make a post like he did and have it respected. No, you don't have to agree but some respect should given based on sheer knowledge alone. I personally am not a super magnum fan nor do I really like ported barrels so Kirby's line of magnums will likely never be something I am interested in. But that in no way kept me from seeking out his input on a topic when I first found this site. His knowledge and "proof" speaks for itself to anyone willing to listen.

 

[Lapua guy]

That may be, but he comes off as hostile to anyone that disagrees or posts a point he doesn't like. He is pretentious, and quite a bore. Luckily this site has many different people to listen to, other than him.

 

[6.5 mag]

well i totally respect anybody with his experience & knowledge but he did come across a bit strong.i live in northern b.c only hunt in canada & have shot many moose ,the last 5 were with bergers 3 with a 7mm 168gr 2 with 264 mag 140grs from 30yards to 250yds 2 perfect lung shots 2 shoulder shots 1 directly facing me all performed perfect. both shoulder shot did result it almost no bullet left but there was a hole big enough to put your fist through the shoulder blade.my elk i shot this year at 390yards with my 264 went through front shoulder & spine not much left of the bullet.with respect all my guns shoot under 3150fps with the bergers so i could see a issue if you pushed them beyond that for speed. they have worked great for me on a bunch of deer too but that is my experience.but hey my buddy shot his 8,6 grizz last year at less than 30yard with a 7mmag & a 175gr honady interlockwent 30ft & died of coarse i was backing him up with my 375-338 though.gun)

 

[str8shoot]

Kirby is one of the most respected members on this site. We are lucky to learn from his vast amount of experience. This respect was not simply handed to him, he has more than earned it, which is more than I can say for you. Don't embarrass yourself any further by insulting him.

 

[Edd]

This is the comment that started the frenzy. Who agrees with it?

... However, the arguement that Berger/JLK VLD's don't perform up close and personal is completely false. They perform just as good at high velocity short ranges as they do waaaaaayyyy out there. I have seen a 300" elk shot in the shoulder at 80 yards with a 105 Berger VLD out of a 6mmx284 with a MV of 3390 drop instantly and not move after. I have yet to see a circumstance where a VLD bullet does not perform as well as any Accubond, Partition, Fail Safe, or Barnes bullets.......

 

[Lapua guy]

Kirby is one of the most respected members on this site. We are lucky to learn from his vast amount of experience. This respect was not simply handed to him, he has more than earned it, which is more than I can say for you. Don't embarrass yourself any further by insulting him.

Sorry bub, but I don't give a darn. He comes off as a pretentious, and pompous arse. Just because you are knowledgeable doesn't give him the right to be so obtuse. Its his type that discourages a lot of people from participating in the forum.

 

[eddybo]

That may be, but he comes off as hostile to anyone that disagrees or posts a point he doesn't like. He is pretentious, and quite a bore. Luckily this site has many different people to listen to, other than him.

What? Kirby handles these situations with kids gloves. If you do not think so you need to go read some old posts by goodgrouper or catshooter. If Kirby's tone gets to you then you need to reread what he posts with a nuetral tone, or get some thicker skin. Kirby is not talking down to you or being condescending, he is trying to share his wealth of information as concisely and accurately as possible. I am sure he gets frustrated at times, the internet can be frustrating when those you are trying to help lack reading comprehension, or others with bad advice keep stepping on your posts.

 

[str8shoot]

This is the comment that started the frenzy. Who agrees with it?

If you think a VLD will perform just as well at short range high velocity as it does at long range mid to lower velocity you are mistaken. If you think a VLD will perform just as well as a Barnes, Accubond, or Swift at close range/high velocity you are simply naive. I was naive too until I shot a cow elk at 50 yards in the shoulder with a 7mm 168 VLD. After killng 3 elk at longer ranges with them, my first attempt at close range was a failure. I think Kirby is trying to get the word out so we don't all have to find things out the hard way. He has tested many bullets and pushed many of them beyond their limits. He has posted his findings on many threads. He is not just pulling some commercial out of his ***.
I don't think this is a matter of opinion. VLDs are fragile, thats why they expand so well at long range. If you shoot heavy game like elk in the shoulder at close range with VLDs sooner rather than later they will fail. You can choose to ignore this, but lessens learned from experience are not always kind.

 

[Lapua guy]

What? Kirby handles these situations with kids gloves. If you do not think so you need to go read some old posts by goodgrouper or catshooter. If Kirby's tone gets to you then you need to reread what he posts with a nuetral tone, or get some thicker skin. Kirby is not talking down to you or being condescending, he is trying to share his wealth of information as concisely and accurately as possible. I am sure he gets frustrated at times, the internet can be frustrating when those you are trying to help lack reading comprehension, or others with bad advice keep stepping on your posts.

As a prospective customer, he ****ed me off enough for me to never do business with him. Perception is reality. Not sure he cares, but it is what it is.

 

[eddybo]

As a prospective customer, he ****ed me off enough for me to never do business with him. Perception is reality. Not sure he cares, but it is what it is.

We are all entitled to our perception, thank goodness no one is in charge of governing the rationality of our perceptions If they were I might be in a rubber room.

 

[Scot E]

Sorry bub, but I don't give a darn. He comes off as a pretentious, and pompous arse. Just because you are knowledgeable doesn't give him the right to be so obtuse. Its his type that discourages a lot of people from participating in the forum.

I have to disagree. It is the fact that his knowledgeable opinion is in direct opposition to yours that causes you to feel the way you do, not the supposed fact that he is pompous. Have you spoken with him personally or are you just inferring these "pretentious and pompous" traits upon him based on the assumed tone you have given his written dialog? Again, I have a hard time believing that anyone reading his info with an open mind for learning is going to see it as you do. Guys with his level of experience should be sharing their findings boldly and not wash it down with a lot of "I believe" and "some times" and "maybe your right". The key is not getting bent out of shape if you disagree. State your points, be willing to look at both sides with a desire to learn the truth or at least a different perspective, be willing to change your opinion if needed, and then move on without name calling. It only makes you look bad when in fact you offer valuable input here.

At some point it may be beneficial to realize they aren't attacking your cyber personage but are in fact stating their opinions which are in opposition to yours. With all due respect Lapua Guy, you are involved in many of the major scuffles and disagreements on this sight. From Jon A's very knowledgeable opinions on optics to one of the top gunsmiths and long range guys on this forum. You sure know how to pick 'em! Every time it is the same. They disagree with you so they are jerks.

Of course you can have your opinion and have every right to share it. But at the end of the day you may want to think about the slim possibility that you have things to learn here too, just like everyone else, and that you could be wrong. Not purposefully wrong of course but we each can only have so much experience given a certain topic, ie optics, ballistics, gunsmithing, bullet performance, etc. Learning from all of the specific expertise here is the reason why this site is so valuable. The learning curve can be greatly shortened if you choose to learn from the experiences of others and not use this site solely to show how hard our chests can be pounded. Picking fights with some of the most knowledgeable guys here and calling them names because they disagree with you isn't helping the flow of information and certainly isn't helping you and others become a better LRH, which is the whole idea here.

 

[Lapua guy]

Bye bye now. I have had quite enough of this thread. I hope the OP has a great hunt, with whichever projectile he chooses.