Long Range thick skin bullets

[bigngreen]

Agreed I spoke out of line and stand corrected. Berger did only market them as a tactical bullet. I wonder if failure would have been worse with a hunting berger due to the thinner jacket.

At that range it would have been very similar, the bullet did not fail, any cup and core bullet that is not bonded or partitioned can and will spit the core like you see, there is nothing holding the core to the jacket so when the lighter jacket opens up and starts grabbing meat the heavier core keeps trucking, nothing to stop it just like the Game King, Nosler Ballistic tip and many other similar designs without bonding or partitions of some kind.

 

[stenger]

I hope this thread has helped someone

 

[elkaholic]

I'm not advocating for or against Bergers. I use them but you have to know your bullet and the game they are being used on. This is why I constantly test other bullets along with my own. I have no doubt that a Berger placed in the rib cavity (broadside) on a moose would put him down as quick as anything! On the other hand, I am not at all surprised that the shots you described got the result I would have anticipated. This is why I don't think "everyone should shoot Bergers at everything"! He is lucky the moose wasn't a bear! You don't take a knife to a gunfight!
I'm not saying that Bergers are billed that way, but they are so popular with long range hunters, and for some good reasons, that everybody thinks they have to shoot high b.c. Bergers at everything. Why, I don't know...My opinion, fire away!.......Rich

 

[MontanaRifleman]

i don't think berger ever marketed the otm as a hunting bullet? Also, the bullet fragments that you found are very typical of berger performance. I agree that 6-8" isn't much penetration, but i don't know that my first two shots at a moose would be at that angle with any bullet........rich

True, the OTM's are not marketed as a "hunting" bullet, but the reason being is that they are a thiker jacketed bullet. From what I see, there was plenty of expansion so one could only imagine what the "hunting" version would have done? I'm thinking likely not any more penetration.

Aslo, seems to ba a lot of comments about shot placement. Sounds to me like shot placement was good for the available shot position. Sometimes we don't always get the perfect shot so if you are out on a $10,000 hunt, you want a bullet that will get the job done, whatever the job is, including a quartering shot.

I think in that vest majority of hunting situations, that Bergers perform very well and they will drop and animal quicker through the lungs than a controlled expansion bullet... but... the controlled expansion bullet is not limited by shot presentation.

Interesting thread

 

[bigngreen]

To bad he didn't shoot it behind the shoulder broad side, it would have been like a grenade going of in his lungs!!!

 

[Pdvdh]

I wonder if failure would have been worse with a hunting berger due to the thinner jacket.

Bingo!

 

[Pdvdh]

Second bulletView attachment 25713

Stenger,
The two pictures you posted are of the same exact piece of lead. The jacket material may be different but the lead fragment is identical. Is there a second bullet that was mistakenly not posted in a picture? If so, could you post the pic of the 2nd bullet's lead fragment? Any weights on the lead fragments? How many grains of intact lead fragment? Thanks for sharing your information and photos. Good stuff.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

Agreed I spoke out of line and stand corrected. Berger did only market them as a tactical bullet. I wonder if failure would have been worse with a hunting berger due to the thinner jacket.

That is a good question and one would reasonably assume they would not have penetrated any better.

I think with Bergers, it is best to go with the heaviest bullet for caliber which reduces velocity and increases mass.

I am leaning more and more to controled expansion bullets for really large game and for close rage big bears, cape buff and other dangerous game I would go with the blunt nose solid copper (not brass) type bullets like the GSC FN in a minimum. And for longer shots, probably the CEB MTH's or GSC HV's in 375 cal.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

To bad he didn't shoot it behind the shoulder broad side, it would have been like a grenade going of in his lungs!!!

That would have been the optimum placement, but sometimes you don't get optimum.

 

[MontanaRifleman]

I hope this thread has helped someone

I for one am glad you posted it. Definitely educational.

 

[stenger]

Not sure that was the pic that was sent to me.

Very good point I love Bergers but I now agree I won't be shooting a berger at everything.

 

[MMERSS]

Reading thru the posts I'm more convinced the 300gr is better suited for the 338. I had great results on three elk this past season with the 300 OTMs and see no reason to change especially for use on a larger animal.

 

[Pdvdh]

Ok first and second shot were behind the ribs on a hard quartering away shot bullets entered had approx eight inches of penetration then failed no bones hit. Bullets did not make it to the diaphragm. Pic one is this bullet. Pic two was a neck shot side of neck penetration was approx 6 inches then stopped. 250 berger OTM at 2915 FPS.

Solely knowing one bullet penetrated 8" and another penetrated 6 inches, along with the description of the impact locations = a clear failure for these bullets to perform on this bull moose. The performance of these two bullets qualifies them as candidates for 250gr coyote bullets.

Others may prefer to state these bullets performed up to expectations (design or otherwise) and/or the failure lies elsewhere. Simply a difference of interpretation and opinion.

Perhaps a bullet selection failure; ie the wrong bullet selection for the game. I'd have used a different bullet myself for moose and have stated so any number of times on this Forum. This doesn't change the fact that these two bullets reportedly failed to penetrate more than 8" on this moose.

Perhaps bullet placement failure. I'd have waited for a broadside shot to the ribs if at all possible to maximize the potential for taking out both lungs. And secondly, to avoid a lot of bullet caused blood and gore damage to the meat. Regardless, the bullets still reportedly penetrated less than 8".

Perhaps the bullet struck at an excessively high speed - beyond its designed impact velocity. Could have loaded the ammo down to a slower muzzle velocity because the bullets might not penetrate at normal cartridge MVs. Personally, I load them as fast as possible. Two 250 gr bullets penetrated less than 8" on hide, fat, muscle, guts.

Picked on too large a bull moose. Should pick on a yearling instead. But even yearlings are thicker than 8" across.

Three possible conclusions come to mind: 1) These 250gr bullets don't perform on moose. 2) These bullets aren't designed for use on moose, therefore if they don't perform, it's not their fault. 3) If the bullets fail to perform on moose, something else other than the bullet is responsible.

 

[Prowler]

I hope this thread has helped someone

Stenger, yes this thread did help solidify bergers should be left to shooting paper and much smaller docile creatures and maybe but not limited to rodents.

Barnes is where it's at and with their performance I see no reason to entertain the thought of letting a Berger bullet fly outta any of my barrels. A SMK or better yet a Scenar woulda outshined the Berger.

As it was said, if your friend was hunting Brown bear in AK they would have found more Berger fragments in his **** along with your friends teeth and hair.

As I've seen and have read in the forum for more than a hand full of years that some here have some kind of vested interest with Berger. I'm not bashing their company (before it comes out of someone's mouth).

Kudos to the guys/gals that use and have faith in Berger bullets.