Long range bullets at close range

[memtb]

It's well documented that monos (not just hammers) struggle to expand at minimum velocities, especially if they don't hit bone. The mono proponents love to talk about match bullets not performing at high speeds on shoulders, but the opposite is true as well, monos at low speeds on flesh leave much to be desired (in my experience of course).

Hence, my statement that you previously quoted!
My response to this topic and any other would be……. "A man should be cognizant of his and his equipment's limitations"! memtb

 

[Hard rock]

It's well documented that monos (not just hammers) struggle to expand at minimum velocities, especially if they don't hit bone. The mono proponents love to talk about match bullets not performing at high speeds on shoulders, but the opposite is true as well, monos at low speeds on flesh leave much to be desired (in my experience of course).

I will stay in the 95 percent camp and limit my ranges too no more than 350 too 600 yds , not saying the bullet I choose too shoot isn't capable of more distance , but that is my self imposed limit and I will stick too the Hammer bullets for now until things go South . I think I convinced at least my Grand daughter a couple weeks ago when she heart shot a 10 point buck . The bullet blew up on impact , leaving nothing to be found , no exit no blood trail , or even a possibility of a blood trail because of a tiny entry hole and no exit . I watched the deer run and found it for her . The shot was at 140 yds or so with a 243 100 gr factory win soft point that performed like most cup and core fast expanding bullets . Each too their own but I prefer a bullet that will perform from point blank to my maximum range I intend to kill , and that is exactly what I have found shooting Hammer bullets .

 

[memtb]

It's well documented that monos (not just hammers) struggle to expand at minimum velocities, especially if they don't hit bone. The mono proponents love to talk about match bullets not performing at high speeds on shoulders, but the opposite is true as well, monos at low speeds on flesh leave much to be desired (in my experience of course).

Not just "match bullets"…..but most cup and core bullets impacting large bone (elk and larger) at high velocity have a pretty poor track record for deep penetration, due to fragmentation and consequential weight loss!

The bonded bullets and of course the Partition helped with penetration…..but even these shed a lot of weight, hindering their penetration abilities, with high velocity impact especially if large bone is encountered! memtb

 

[Hard rock]

I will stay in the 95 percent camp and limit my ranges too no more than 350 too 600 yds , not saying the bullet I choose too shoot isn't capable of more distance , but that is my self imposed limit and I will stick too the Hammer bullets for now until things go South . I think I convinced at least my Grand daughter a couple weeks ago when she heart shot a 10 point buck . The bullet blew up on impact , leaving nothing to be found , no exit no blood trail , or even a possibility of a blood trail because of a tiny entry hole and no exit . I watched the deer run and found it for her . The shot was at 140 yds or so with a 243 100 gr factory win soft point that performed like most cup and core fast expanding bullets . Each to their own but I prefer a bullet that will perform from point blank to my maximum range I intend to kill , and that is exactly what I have found shooting Hammer bullets .

I'm not aware of any documentation of Hammer bullets not performing as advertised , minimum 1800 fps impact vel too no imposed max impact vel .

 

[WYO300RUM]

I'm not aware of any documentation of Hammer bullets not performing as advertised , minimum 1800 fps impact vel too no imposed max impact vel .

Got pics to upload on post 148. The ELDX made a mess as usual like Bergers. I caught the back end of shoulder blades. It took top part of both lungs out. I set them out to take pick but forgot. I'd of probably had less damage with the 300 win mag and 180 Hammer !

 

[fordy]

It's well documented that monos (not just hammers) struggle to expand at minimum velocities, especially if they don't hit bone. The mono proponents love to talk about match bullets not performing at high speeds on shoulders, but the opposite is true as well, monos at low speeds on flesh leave much to be desired (in my experience of course).

Gday ucsdryder
On documentation I would like to see that please & hope it includes the pill & twist & the resistance that was encountered @ what velocity

Yes some mono proponents do only talk that side & if you are only impacting @ high impact nothing wrong with that exactly the same as a c&c guy only impacting below 2100 as a general example

But most monos really arnt that good below 2400 anyway especially when you get that between the ribs shot that happens

A few will reliably expand well below this & time after time in flesh only & no hint of the struggle to expand with hammers along with Leigh's , cutting edge , apex , badlands , OEP gpa & a few more
But it's not expanding that some of the brands above struggle @ it's how they kill that divides the pack & on your between the ribs to shoulder , quarter too & away etc across various impact velocities multiple times that we get a picture of where a pill sits on a scale of killing efficiency & really only 3 mono brands kill fairly well around that 1800 plus mark but below this a lot a real lot is left to be desired but also when you enter into a few scenarios that play out in the field that also separates those 3

I'm not saying a hammer won't fail as every pill will ( even this prototype I'm testing will one day ) but from my results I'm yet to see a pattern even slightly of hammers not expanding @ low velocity & extremely low resistances yes it will happen but if we look @ why it has occurred it's was a pretty easy fix now we know a bit more of what went on


I look forward to the documented evidence & hope we can all learn a bit more
Cheers

 

[Hard rock]

Gday ucsdryder
On documentation I would like to see that please & hope it includes the pill & twist & the resistance that was encountered @ what velocity

Yes some mono proponents do only talk that side & if you are only impacting @ high impact nothing wrong with that exactly the same as a c&c guy only impacting below 2100 as a general example

But most monos really arnt that good below 2400 anyway especially when you get that between the ribs shot that happens

A few will reliably expand well below this & time after time in flesh only & no hint of the struggle to expand with hammers along with Leigh's , cutting edge , apex , badlands , OEP gpa & a few more
But it's not expanding that some of the brands above struggle @ it's how they kill that divides the pack & on your between the ribs to shoulder , quarter too & away etc across various impact velocities multiple times that we get a picture of where a pill sits on a scale of killing efficiency & really only 3 mono brands kill fairly well around that 1800 plus mark but below this a lot a real lot is left to be desired but also when you enter into a few scenarios that play out in the field that also separates those 3

I'm not saying a hammer won't fail as every pill will ( even this prototype I'm testing will one day ) but from my results I'm yet to see a pattern even slightly of hammers not expanding @ low velocity & extremely low resistances yes it will happen but if we look @ why it has occurred it's was a pretty easy fix now we know a bit more of what went on


I look forward to the documented evidence & hope we can all learn a bit more
Cheers

Fordy always great too read your post , they are all-ways very informative , Have a Happy Prosperous New Year.

 

[Priley]

Gday priely isn't this thread on what longrange bullets do up close so what happens when the critter spins on a dime & the left last rib is encountered or worse a even harder quarter away while you've squeezed off yep your Berger ISNoT your pill but if you just want to kill ok it will do that ( also maybe a lost critter a possibility) but other brands /types will do a way better job , that's my position & always looking forward to seeing more & I note you stated the 133 gr 25 cal Berger which wasn't around in my day when I used bergers & A high probability it is no different than a lot of others I've used but that's my thoughts & previous experiences

So a Couple questions
1/ why are you saying stop shooting the shoulder ( angles / resistances for my reference only )
2/ what was the shot placement on the 75 yard & over 1000 yard
3/ what were these velocity impacts
4/ where did the 2 ranges open up on impact of the pill in the critter
5/ was a exit achieved if not position of retained pill & weight
6/ length of penertration
7/ where on the length of this penertration did the wound channel start to lesson or was it the same all the way through
8/ the pills path straight line or not even tumble ( but that's hard to see all the time with clarity )

There are others but I will leave that for another day & im not being smart or just flinging things out there as I carefully take note of all of those above & more & also it's not done off one impact /angle to form a base of where a pills weaknesses are as if we can help stop even one of those weaknesses happening that's great news for us & critter

Mine it was done over more than I'll mention here but a few know I didn't mess around
Just for note zoom up on my avatar as these just arrived home & were only a small sample of what was taken in about 10 /12 days hunting / testing not all mine but my hands got a little bloody lol yep going through those questions above & more

I'm no guru just lucky to have done what I've done & taking notes while observing along the way has been priceless / clearer for me on what pill to use on what & where

cheers

Yes this is a thread on long range bullets up close but I said Berger bullets will kill at both long and close ranges.
#1 why not shoot the shoulder? Common sense. Behind the shoulder is the best place to hit any animal to put it down quickly whether a high shoulder or low shoulder the bullet will take out the internal organs.
#2 I don't care if it's 30 yards or 1200 yards I aim for the same place. Usually high shoulder.
#3 all over 1800 fps.
#4 75 yard opened up around an inch in. The longer shots usually drive a little deeper before opening1 1/2 to 2 inches
#5 Berger bullets rarely exit which is what I want. I want all the energy from my bullet to be used up inside the animal which is how Berger bullets are made.
#6 The insides were destroyed. Dead is dead.....
#7 same as #6
#8 Never had a Berger bullet tumble. Berger bullets are designed to come apart as they penetrate destroying tissue with hydrostatic shock. I have seen video's however on hammer bullets tumbling in gel tests.

 

[fordy]

Fordy always great too read your post , they are all-ways very informative , Have a Happy Prosperous New Year.

Gday hardrock
Thankyou & may yours also be a happy prosperous one

Cheers

 

[WYO300RUM]

Yes this is a thread on long range bullets up close but I said Berger bullets will kill at both long and close ranges.
#1 why not shoot the shoulder? Common sense. Behind the shoulder is the best place to hit any animal to put it down quickly whether a high shoulder or low shoulder the bullet will take out the internal organs.
#2 I don't care if it's 30 yards or 1200 yards I aim for the same place. Usually high shoulder.
#3 all over 1800 fps.
#4 75 yard opened up around an inch in. The longer shots usually drive a little deeper before opening1 1/2 to 2 inches
#5 Berger bullets rarely exit which is what I want. I want all the energy from my bullet to be used up inside the animal which is how Berger bullets are made.
#6 The insides were destroyed. Dead is dead.....
#7 same as #6
#8 Never had a Berger bullet tumble. Berger bullets are designed to come apart as they penetrate destroying tissue with hydrostatic shock. I have seen video's however on hammer bullets tumbling in gel tests.

amen

 

[Ucsdryder]

While I don't actually shoot Hammers…..I do believe their philosophy has merit!

I'm kinda stuck on Barnes…..if I can get my Christmas Present, 270 grain LRX's accurately to 3000 fps or a bit better, I should be good to 350 yards beyond my self-imposed limit on shooting of big game animals!

Though, I believe that a .375 cal. @ 1800 fps should kill fairly reliably! memtb

Up to and including elephants!

 

[jasent]

This one does great at close range and long range
205gr super bulldozer 2

 

[memtb]

Up to and including elephants!

That was the plan! memtb

 

[fordy]

Yes this is a thread on long range bullets up close but I said Berger bullets will kill at both long and close ranges.
#1 why not shoot the shoulder? Common sense. Behind the shoulder is the best place to hit any animal to put it down quickly whether a high shoulder or low shoulder the bullet will take out the internal organs.
#2 I don't care if it's 30 yards or 1200 yards I aim for the same place. Usually high shoulder.
#3 all over 1800 fps.
#4 75 yard opened up around an inch in. The longer shots usually drive a little deeper before opening1 1/2 to 2 inches
#5 Berger bullets rarely exit which is what I want. I want all the energy from my bullet to be used up inside the animal which is how Berger bullets are made.
#6 The insides were destroyed. Dead is dead.....
#7 same as #6
#8 Never had a Berger bullet tumble. Berger bullets are designed to come apart as they penetrate destroying tissue with hydrostatic shock. I have seen video's however on hammer bullets tumbling in gel tests.

Thanks for the reply
I mean no disrespect in the following to you or others so please step back a little first & analysis of what I'm saying or trying to say as I also have trouble from time to time or please ask so I can hopefully clarify
I basically come from the point of what we can do / use to lesson the chance of a less than ideal result happening & with the utmost respect I don't care how good everyone believes they can place your shot with consistency I say no one can even a gold medal Olympic shooter has a bad day now & then

Keep shooting your frangible & erratic results will come & it will happen but I hope it doesn't to you but I guarantee it will happen to someone ( other brands will fail to give 100% perfection also but not as high as with the following)

Especially up close & on high resistance which I didn't give a number to initially ( my first paragraph to you ) but you have answered this like I used to think was a unreal pill design & energy dump was my go to method until eventually the penny dropped

It was our lack of control in a environment that is outside of our control & thats animal behaviour & a animal that's surprised / alarmed or even in the rut are unpredictable & while most of the time we will get our shot off when we want & the animal doesn't move it will move if Murphy is about & it does happen then add human deficiency @ either self control due to last day of a safari or your legal light of the season or understanding the critter is actually quartered more than we believe let alone environmental factors

So now we will get into a bit of the nuts & bolts on why we will see less than ideal results & please step back once again & analysing what has been seen on a huge number of critters to come to these conclusions but I also am still searching for a pill to cover more bases so I've got no one pill does all for everyone/everything

So your energy dump pill stays inside the critter on perfect broadside berger if you want but it's not specific just a energy dump analogy I'm putting up broadly speaking is destined to fail & eventually will

Example We have 2 foot of penertration where the pill will be under the hide on the offside now due to the critter's behaviour or our lack of understanding the critter was quartered more than we thought or spun on a dime as we were sending the shot on its way & our required penertration goes from 2 foot to 3
Now our pill is a foot short & basically one lung uneffected & a lot of critters can & do run on one lung a long way & some critters can & do become extremely dangerous when wounded & they have you in their sights & they don't even have to be the normal dangerous class to do this

But it's when you delve deeper into the terminal side you understand that a pill dosent magically have the same permanent wound channel until it stops ( I think we get that ) & also broadly speaking the last 1/3 of the permanent wound channel ( lots of variations with different brands ) is starting to get to a part where we are not getting sufficient damage to give us a quick kill with that last 8 inches on our 2 foot total penertration of the permanent wound channel basically useless @ killing quick so now we are running on 1&1/2 lungs but then we add what happens if the angle increase again & only the far lung is in the pills path it will fail to reach it if it's lucky if it's a left side paunch shot & for those that say but dead is dead please respect that's not the optimal world some of us seek as the critter can & most likely it does run a long way with very little blood if any on some species & in certain terrain that is a lost animal or @ best a longtime to recover it

So with the utmost respect this is where it's so important to get a exit on a percentage base of pills especially broadside I say it's extremely important
Now I'm leaving dry encrusting mud to thick ice on the hide /fur on some critters & one also requires other parameters to think about
But for the new comers the above of energy dump & pill under skin on the far side is flaunt with danger
Yes it will kill eventually but if it's a greater % in your favour I'd suggest to reassess the energy dump idea as I did

A frangible can do it & get reliable exits as I've done it with great results but the old line of stay off bone up close is one I like to adhere to with frangible as a good rule of thumb as the energy dump is mostly in the shoulder itself just like it does on the left side of a hard quarter away

On hammers tumbling in gel yep seen plenty of them just like I have with Berger & I looked up that 133 gr Berger you mentioned & hey presto first video up a tumble & these guys ( ultimate reloader ) seem to do pretty good tests so not a back yard outfit I'd say
But I'll go one better than gel I found initially tumbling with hammers in critters on a couple pills with extreme consistent tumbling which Steve took on board & I believe those pills are now tweaked with way better results well was on the last lot of testing done in December so that's a tick to hammers moving forward yet I have not seen the same with your Berger in critters by a couple mates that still shoot them & the tumble is still present now & then but a consistent opening they are not & the eld range is far superior @ consistent opening across the board

Tumbles can give great terminal preformance but we have no certainty on the pills path so erratic results once again become the norm so they can't be relied on for consistency but in most cases yes dead is dead but I want my dead dead

Once again no offence intended to anyone just trying to put up some things I've found to think about then talk about it
It's not from a gurus point it's just from the field on what I've observed so take it as everyone wishes

Sorry for long winded post

Cheers