Some like to tinker and others feel it's like this:
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Calvin45
Well-Known Member
Oh man I love woodleigh bullets and you're right they're among the best big game performers, period.Gday memtb
I heard on the grapevine you lot have had some fun over here I was coming for a laugh & got to this one as I thought that sounds interesting
But it is in a different way
So now I find myself going to need 2 coffees to hopefully explain why some do
Tinkering to me is raising the bar if we can show merit on where a weakness exists & one of the best " true biggame " bullet companies did just that for which they tinkered as they went on their journey.
That's woodleigh bullets & how they evolved from humble beginnings to be recognised as one of the best .
I've only spoken to Geoff a couple times never did any work for him but his book is worth a read imo of what they went through to get the respect their pills have worldwide still today ( factory fire sucked )
Yet others could see weaknesses in their pills & took a different approach/path
Which is fine for me but I'm still taking 50 cal woodleigh to zim in 2 weeks because they are ever so consistent in solids & until I see someone produce a better overall pill I'll not be swayed but as those tinkers play with things there is every possibility it will come
Not saying others like the ceb solid are no good as they are & one of the best for overall penertration but they don't quite reach the wound channel width of the hydro & im after buff so I'll be lucky to stop a hydro in 2 buff let alone one so how much penertration does one want
Yes that's part of the puzzle that us as hunters need to apply to get the good results to great results
So why don't I just take hydros & be done with it because from the tinkering crowd the bar has been raised on impact to tip & that has come from pills like Barnes ( still no reason in my book to not have a solid hence why hydros are coming)
Let's step back a bit in time & broadly speaking
Let's start with mushroom monos
The mushroom mono has the advantage of deeper penetration than any c&c & relies on speed to get a good wound channel
& not a lot has changed & some brands will open @ lower impacts but this creates other issues but I'd really love those guys to come clean on opening & imo open means nothing if preformance drops off to a level that's giving erratic results or extended runs
Then you have the push the mono to fast & petals are shed ( I've yet to find one brand I can't kill ) or due to being to brittle or to soft this causes issues in other fields the type of copper in it's molecular structure/properties is key here but the sometimes broached pills this helps but also hinders
Yes it's the same old same old you fix one part but create others , some were never seen till that point as the pill failed before it was seen but until the tinker's produced a better pill these were never known about so no one could try & fix what was once no known
Hence we have the pills like Barnes or the c&c of today
Yes on the whole they are more consistent than the pills of 50/100 years ago yet they will still kill just not as consistent across the board
Now move that to the she'd variety & if I'm correct your having trouble in accepting a shed petal mono will out penetrate a mushroom mono
I'll show some pictures soon that have proven that we cannot assume we will always be correct in thinking & I've made some huge mistakes on assumptions but it's how I learn
The shed monos overall will easily out penertrate a mushroom mono & with a greater wound channel ( length & width )
The impact to tip is also less with a shed than mushroom
The first pill I seen this in was a gpa as man those things killed ( in its velocity window) compared to Barnes
( I don't remember how many monos I've tested but it would surprise a few on how many are out there & still popping up as tinkers start a business one new one in Aussie just a couple months ago )
Now the gpa has been easily exceeded by the tinkering crowd & the velocity window has reached way greater coverage of those from years ago
Now go to ceb raptors & these pills watch them show a Barnes how penertration is achieved ( you need to clear ones head on a approach to use to get the most out of them ) & impact to tip is also reduced when you use raptors yet they won't fit everyone's liking as they have weaknesses & it's using them appropriately to get the best results
& the list goes on as the tinkering occurs then we come to the last one standing @ present from my observations
Yep hammers
Now hammers are no different they just raised the bar from the likes of that ceb but I'll note that a couple of companies were getting extremely close to surpassing but it's 2 simple yet often overlooked factors that let's them down time after time & I'll put Steve in that category in my early days of using hammers but I think he's got his mojo back now
I mean no disrespect to anyone & don't profess to know everything as I was recently asking how is that possible on a pill I've tested I still don't get it but I'm trying to work it out & parts are starting to get filled in until my mates throw a spanner in my works & I need to eat crow again
So a tinkering I like as it raises the bar
But I've seen a many of a sunken ship trying to get that gain
Here's a few pics of try & get these with a mushroom mono & exception of the elephant I was present with others
( the elephant was forwarded onto me around 2 weeks ago )
& no Barnes in same calibre will out penertrate these
Yes they are hammer pills because they are the best I've seen @ consistently producing results like this & impact to tip that is second to none
View attachment 463395View attachment 463396View attachment 463397
Take note of recovered shank nearly all mushroom monos will not make it past the paunch
View attachment 463398View attachment 463399These buff both had shanks make vitals
Here's the elephant & that's the off shoulder which it didn't quite get through the hide but I know very little else on this critter
View attachment 463400
Hope that settles your curiosity if not stay tuned something soon may
For those who are happy shooting what they are shooting with that's cool & may you continue to shoot well with them but I tip my hat to the tinkering community & look forward to tomorrows pills
Sorry for long winded post but I don't mind taking the time to type up for the nice people here
I'm off to tinker with my 500 pills
Cheers
I've been in email correspondence with them a bit since that horrible fire. Was so
Glad to hear they're resuming production and understand it's gonna be slow going getting all tooled up again. But I wanted to encourage them and simply said that I'm in no hurry and whenever their fine bullets are around again I'll have my wallet out. I'm especially interested in the big 310 grain round nose out of my 12 twist .358 Norma. Should turn it into some kinda monster for sure haha. Now if only I had anything to hunt that justified that…
Another company I'm planning to buy things from soon is the independently owned chinchaga bullets out of Alberta Canada, a Mr Dale Jansen runs it. Aluminum or steel tipped rbt bullets and such with honest bc numbers long before alco and others were even a thought in someone's head haha.
Hammer of Montana USA
Woodleigh of Australia
Chinchaga of Alberta Canada
3 great totally independent companies making great stuff in great countries.
Mike Matteson
Well-Known Member
My thinking was that Canada had stopped all types of making anything doing with firearms.Oh man I love woodleigh bullets and you're right they're among the best big game performers, period.
I've been in email correspondence with them a bit since that horrible fire. Was so
Glad to hear they're resuming production and understand it's gonna be slow going getting all tooled up again. But I wanted to encourage them and simply said that I'm in no hurry and whenever their fine bullets are around again I'll have my wallet out. I'm especially interested in the big 310 grain round nose out of my 12 twist .358 Norma. Should turn it into some kinda monster for sure haha. Now if only I had anything to hunt that justified that…
Another company I'm planning to buy things from soon is the independently owned chinchaga bullets out of Alberta Canada, a Mr Dale Jansen runs it. Aluminum or steel tipped rbt bullets and such with honest bc numbers long before alco and others were even a thought in someone's head haha.
Hammer of Montana USA
Woodleigh of Australia
Chinchaga of Alberta Canada
3 great totally independent companies making great stuff in great countries.
I thought he had 1k failures before he stole the successful idea from his employee?
*Insert Edison vs Tesla conspiracy theory here*
If you are an employee, all ideas belong to your employer. I learned that lesson the hard way
Calvin45
Well-Known Member
Yep lot of bosses and "leaders" out there with little if any integrity to give credit where it is due. Of course there's lots of rotten employees too but where the responsibility (and pay) is higher, more is to rightly be expected.
I forget who I first heard say that, whether it was in the field of church ministry, education administration, or military leadership, it would certainly apply to any of these, but one thing that's really stuck with me was this observation (paraphrased, don't remember the exact quote)
"A good leader takes the heat for their teams mistakes and gives them the credit for their successes".
Not to say you don't address those failures and try to lead them to better performance BUT when things go wrong and a leader throws those under them under the bus for it (and most will do this) that automatically shows me what they're made of and it's not the stuff of someone I'd trust to follow.
By that same token if a leader leads his team to success or victory or some achievement and chooses to stay out of the limelight and let them have "the glory" as it were, that shows me a lot too. I could trust someone like that. And I don't think they'd steal ideas and take credit for them. Such men and women are rare in this world.
Mike Matteson
Well-Known Member
US Supreme Court a great many years ruled on who owns what. If develop at home then taken to the office. It yours, and not their. If I recall correctly that was in about 2005. Not for sure on what date.
Hand Skills
Well-Known Member
My thinking was that Canada had stopped all types of making anything doing with firearms.
There are still a few manufacturers hanging on in Canada.
ATRS
Cadex
Colt Canada
Fierce
PGW
Savage
Ancillary stuff too;
Elcan
Lab Radar
MDT
Tangent Theta
That's just off the top of my head, I know there are others... For now, anyway...
Calvin45
Well-Known Member
On the component side of things we got Chinchaga bullets out of Alberta as well as campro (similar to berrys, cheap plated type bulk plinking bullets)
Too bad matrix ballistics isn't around anymore.
Further clarification about savage: yes it's an American company but most of their rimfire rifles are manufactured in Ontario.
Its not reinventing the wheel, for its attempting to improve on a design to meet a specific purpose or to modify a bullet to fulfill a need due to a shortage, etc.
If we never tried to improve the first invention, i.e. the wheel, we would be riding around on carved stone or wooden wheels cut from a tree trunk or from boards, or at best, old wooded spokes with a steel band. However, we all know modern wheels and tires are far superior to those old designs, and even much better than designs and materials just a few decades or years ago.
Similarly, if we never tried to improve bullets, well, we would all still be shooting carved stones, cast iron, cast lead, round nose jacketed, etc. Just over my lifetime, I have seen tremendous improvements in bullet designs that brought us the monolithics, VLD's, tipped, various controlled and more reliable expansions (rifle and pistol), powder coatings, improved jacket concentrics, etc, etc.
I do understand what you are saying, but today's modern bullets just didn't one day appear. People wanted something for some reason, and often via trial and error, they created something "better".
Just like those old boys who played with old car or plane engines, because they needed or wanted something more than what was available. And just like many of us who were not satisfied with only shooting a couple of hundred yards or so, or being told we could never hit game beyond a certain distance. We challenged the accepted norms, demanded improvements or created them ourselves, and expanded the envelope.
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Totally agree. Speaking of wheels, think of the tires your father's time (My father was born in 1910) and the tires today. Would you rather have those old materials and designs on your car today? You are the one deciding
