case welding?
- Thread starter eddybo
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specweldtom
Well-Known Member
Eddybo; I'm for sure going to learn something on this thread, I don't even know what it is!
Thanks, Tom
Thanks, Tom
blackco
Well-Known Member
The only thing I can say is...HUH? I have some boxes of pistol ammo (handloads, what else?) that have been around 3-5 years. No problems. My dad has some reloads older than many of the folks on this site. He lives on the Oregon coast so conditions are less than optimum. Chamber them, pull the trigger...BANG!!!
Like specweldtom, maybe I will learn something I should know here.
Like specweldtom, maybe I will learn something I should know here.
royinidaho
Well-Known Member
I've been able to braze and solder them but they melt every time I've tried welding.
Whatchew talkin' about, huh?
Whatchew talkin' about, huh?
HeskethPritchard
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2006
- Messages
- 257
I might have to eat humble pie but I think someone is pulling your chain, I handload huge amounts and I have never heard of it. Logic tells me that all I do is use my hands and not machines to load cases so why wouldn't high volume manufacturers have the same problem, if it existed????
ss7mm
Well-Known Member
eddybo:
There's more than one kind of case welding I've heard of, but it seems like what you're talking about has to do with what some people refer to as when a seated bullet "adheres" to a case neck over time, thus increasing the resistance required to start and thus move the bullet out of the case neck and into it's flight down the barrel.
I do know that I've read of some benchresters seating a bullet long, if they load them very long before a match. Then just before shooting them, or just before the match, they give them the final seating, breaking the initial tension between the bullet and the neck and thus they have a more consistent neck to bullet friction/tension. Evidently they feel that this gives them the most consistent neck tension possible.
Does it happen??? Probably to a degree. Does it help to seat long and then re-seat before shooting??? If you're anal and it makes you happy, then it helps. Is it necessary for a normal hunting rifle??? I doubt it. Have I done it??? Yup
There's more than one kind of case welding I've heard of, but it seems like what you're talking about has to do with what some people refer to as when a seated bullet "adheres" to a case neck over time, thus increasing the resistance required to start and thus move the bullet out of the case neck and into it's flight down the barrel.
I do know that I've read of some benchresters seating a bullet long, if they load them very long before a match. Then just before shooting them, or just before the match, they give them the final seating, breaking the initial tension between the bullet and the neck and thus they have a more consistent neck to bullet friction/tension. Evidently they feel that this gives them the most consistent neck tension possible.
Does it happen??? Probably to a degree. Does it help to seat long and then re-seat before shooting??? If you're anal and it makes you happy, then it helps. Is it necessary for a normal hunting rifle??? I doubt it. Have I done it??? Yup
CatShooter
Well-Known Member
It is a myth. I have ammo that was loaded over 30 years ago, and it is fine, and the bullets are not stuck to the necks.
The benchrest community is filled with voodoo, wives tales, and "secret handshakes"... and bogus science.
Think of all the 50 year old military surplus ammo that is shot every day... none of it is welded.
The problem with these myths is that they get repeated on the net (or a gun rag) and a new generation believes it, even though they don't even know what they believe... they just repeat it over and over... and then get to the point where they defend it in debates like they knew what they were talking about.
It is an benchrest shooters urban myth.
.
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
It is very real. It has two causes. Adhesion and cohesion. Adhesion is the bonding of two dissimiliar substances such as when you use a glue to hold two pieces of wood together. Cohesion is when two similiar substances bond together because the molecules of each piece bond Cohesion usaully requires some mechanical interaction or chemical interaction. Rust will join iron together.
Let us discuss adhesion first. If you use a case lube then you have placed an organic material of petroluem origin inside the case neck and it will slowly turn to a material that you would call varnish if it was in your favorite Holley double pumper. This varnish is basically a glue that your can see adhering to the engine parts. It will glue the bullet into the case neck.
Now let us speak of cohesion. Two similiar metals such as iron or in our case brass, if they are pressed together so that the matrix structures can complete themselves will become bonded by weak molecular forces. The more pressure the more the matrices are brought closer together and the more molecular bonds will form. For those of you who wish to verify the fact yourself, simply Google up "cohesion of metals". It amazes me sometimes the amount of useless stuff I actually know.
This reference has been written since I first studied this stuff 40 years ago and apparently what I know is out of date.
Now then those of you who have been living happily without knowing how to compute Van Der Waals forces can perform this simple experiment.
Go to your cabinet and get out some year old or perhaps only six months old loaded bullets and some empty cases. Size and seat a bullet in the empty cases to the same COL as the old bullets.
Take and screw the seating die down a quarter turn. Insert a newly crafted cartridge and seat it further. Take an old cartridge and seat it further. You will find that there is a definite "breaking loose" with the older cartridge.
Now then I do not shoot well enough to determine if this is enough to affect accuracy because I spent to much of my life doing stupid things like computing Van der Waals forces.
I personally go through the above proceedure of breaking the bullets loose every year for any bullets that I might hunt with that are left over from the previous year. I learned to do this about 30 years ago and maybe it is stupid, but it is what I do and there is a basis in science for it.
Let us discuss adhesion first. If you use a case lube then you have placed an organic material of petroluem origin inside the case neck and it will slowly turn to a material that you would call varnish if it was in your favorite Holley double pumper. This varnish is basically a glue that your can see adhering to the engine parts. It will glue the bullet into the case neck.
Now let us speak of cohesion. Two similiar metals such as iron or in our case brass, if they are pressed together so that the matrix structures can complete themselves will become bonded by weak molecular forces. The more pressure the more the matrices are brought closer together and the more molecular bonds will form. For those of you who wish to verify the fact yourself, simply Google up "cohesion of metals". It amazes me sometimes the amount of useless stuff I actually know.
This reference has been written since I first studied this stuff 40 years ago and apparently what I know is out of date.
Now then those of you who have been living happily without knowing how to compute Van Der Waals forces can perform this simple experiment.
Go to your cabinet and get out some year old or perhaps only six months old loaded bullets and some empty cases. Size and seat a bullet in the empty cases to the same COL as the old bullets.
Take and screw the seating die down a quarter turn. Insert a newly crafted cartridge and seat it further. Take an old cartridge and seat it further. You will find that there is a definite "breaking loose" with the older cartridge.
Now then I do not shoot well enough to determine if this is enough to affect accuracy because I spent to much of my life doing stupid things like computing Van der Waals forces.
I personally go through the above proceedure of breaking the bullets loose every year for any bullets that I might hunt with that are left over from the previous year. I learned to do this about 30 years ago and maybe it is stupid, but it is what I do and there is a basis in science for it.
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Well, Catshooter, if you had been faster typing I would have seen your post and typed mine a little different.
Anyway, I guess being as I live in an URBAN area and am subject to URBAN myths, maybe the higher ozone levels contribute to the process.
Anyway, I guess being as I live in an URBAN area and am subject to URBAN myths, maybe the higher ozone levels contribute to the process.
davewilson
Well-Known Member
BB, i don't think anyone on here would argue there are some very mysterious forces in your "urban" area.
CatShooter
Well-Known Member
I guess it's the ozone that does the welding... cuz it doesn't happen here.
come on everyone, give the guy some latitude. metal does corode over time. Like others have said, that is probably what he is talking about. I have factory ammo that is 10-15 years old that obviously has some visible changes to it.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
Welding
Bob is right !
They do stick but the only ammo that I ever reseated was the military
stuff that had used a asphalt based bullet sealant and all it seemed to
do was lower the standard deviation and the velocity a little.
As for welding cases to bullets I can weld every thing from the crack
of dawn to a broken hart but not bullets to cases . JUST KIDDING !
Interesting
J E CUSTOM
Bob is right !
They do stick but the only ammo that I ever reseated was the military
stuff that had used a asphalt based bullet sealant and all it seemed to
do was lower the standard deviation and the velocity a little.
As for welding cases to bullets I can weld every thing from the crack
of dawn to a broken hart but not bullets to cases . JUST KIDDING !
Interesting
J E CUSTOM
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I've read two posts recently where individuals talked about lubing the inside of their case necks to help minimize this possibility of the bullets bonding to their case necks. This done in the effort to improve the consistency of their case neck tension. The more interesting procedure I read about was the use of an HB grade pencil from an art supply store. The individual coated the inside of his case necks with the pencil, and claimed the graphite in the pencil helped to ease the force required to seat the bullets but more importantly, provided more consistent neck tension. I've been considering using this method since it seems pain free, non messy, fast, and cheap. But I don't know if it would make a knat's *** difference or not.
