Why Hammer Bullets Are Always Faster

[fordy]

Gday lou

Brass is not like a shear pin either. Shear pins and fuses are designed to let go at specific limits to protect equipment, rifle brass is not. You don't buy a higher amp fuse so you can run more current through a circuit as that defeats the purpose of a fuse. What is getting proposed (at least sounds to me) is that running stronger brass lets you run higher pressures at lower risk. But there is no reduction in risk. The accumulated stress of higher pressure is what causes increased fatigue and risk of failure, not necessarily a single overload. Maybe you have confidence your action/barrel can handle it or never shoot enough to see a problem. Again, it is just a poor analogy or metaphor for folks who may be new to this. If you are pushing the edge you should understand what is going on

Lou

Just a simple minded fella here

I'll ask for the new folks a couple points you put up

how much is never shoot enough ? & this flows into these couple of sums in the following

if a action is rated @100k & we run loads to 75/ 80 k
When can we expect a action failure 100 , 1000 , 10000 rounds or more


Now compare this to a sammi spec of 65 k loads please

Lastly loads to 100k



& please don't dismiss this as it's a legitimate question that ultimately won't only help the new folks it will also the majority imo

Cheers

 

[Lou270]

Ok - since folks want a metaphor, I will give a similar, but better metaphor. A circuit breaker is designed to trip at a certain amperage. Sometimes a weak breaker when you are getting close to this limit it will buzz before popping (or not pop, but i cant think of a better analogy). Let us assume for this discussion the buzz is a warning and not faulty. I gather you are looking at brass like it tells you this limit. Since there is no similar limit for brass, this idea is flawed but let's assume it is ok

So, you are looking for the buzz. If you don't like where this buzz is happening you get a higher rated breaker (stronger brass). So in the case of your handload you are running at higher pressure and feel ok about it because backed off from the buzz.

So what does this mean? If you look at a # of cycles (shots) vs stress (pressure) curve for steel (action) , the # of cycles before failure decreases exponentially with the increase in stress. So, running an action at normal pressures may give you 10's or 100 thousands or more rounds, running at higher pressure can quickly reduce to few thousand rounds before strain lets go even at standard pressures. This is also why proof loads are only shot once. Single high pressure events can significantly decrease the life of an action to point where "normal" pressure loads cause failure. I am under the impression from folks on this thread that just because an action can survive a single event at much higher than normal operating pressure (ie 100k) that means the system is overly conservative. That are certainly safety margins built in, but it is not as black/white as made out to be. Like I said, folks who dabble outside the system need to understand these things and that is not best place for a novice

Lou

 

[1mechanic]

Ok here's one you might understand say the firearm is 2/0 wire but you only have a 30 amp fuse or breaker, then you decide to go to a 70 amp fuse or breaker how are you overloading the circuit.

Oh by the way I know 2/0 is good for 200 amps.

Not trying to belittle you but how much below the rating of circuit do you feel safe?

Edit my misspelling

 

[cabelasken]

I have a custom 284 win that loves to be loaded with a grain or two above what the book suggests. When I did that, groups were typically 1/2 moa or less for 5 shot groups. But I soon found out brass only lasted 5 loadings vs 10 when loaded a grain or two lower. With the price and availability of brass for this caliber as it is, I have stopped loading this round on the high side with my groups got just slightly bigger. Hammer bullets have returned that velocity to this gun and the accuracy has returned..

 

[Lou270]

Ok here's one you might understand say the firearm is 2/0 wire but you only have a 30 amp fuse or breaker, then you decide to go to a 70 amp fuse or breaker how are you overloading the circuit.

Oh by the way I know 2/0 is good for 200 amps.

Not trying to belittle you but how much below the rating of circuit do you feed safe?

I think my last post answer your question?

 

[Don Titus]

That's not bad advise for a novice reloader, but I do know the first signs of pressure, that being a heavy bolt or primer issues, and each rifle is different as you probably know.
Before I started loading Hammer bullets I paid close attention to load data and even if I had not reached max by the book if my rifle said hey buds that's too much powder for this load then i backed off or started fresh with another bullet, powder, or primer, of course I had a clean barrel.
But when I started loading Hammer bullets I listened to the experts on how to load them and of course I already had knowledge about pressure signs. In today's world I wouldn't tell most people how to reload because of people being people, but there are some on this sight that I'd share load data with and be comfortable using what they gave me. That doesn't mean I still wouldn't work up to it as I always do, but I also know they wouldn't give me something they felt it was unsafe.
I use a 178gr Absolute Hammer bullet and it's faster, a lot faster, than advertised load data for a 180gr bullet, but this bullet is designed to go faster with less pressure and it does. Did I find the pressure sign, I did and I backed off 1 gr of powder and I have no brass issues, nor any pressure signs with that load.

Same story for me with the 174 Hammer Hunter in 300 WM

 

[Lou270]

Gday lou


Just a simple minded fella here

I'll ask for the new folks a couple points you put up

how much is never shoot enough ? & this flows into these couple of sums in the following

if a action is rated @100k & we run loads to 75/ 80 k
When can we expect a action failure 100 , 1000 , 10000 rounds or more


Now compare this to a sammi spec of 65 k loads please

Lastly loads to 100k



& please don't dismiss this as it's a legitimate question that ultimately won't only help the new folks it will also the majority imo

Cheers

Fordy

And therein lies the quandry. Nobody publishes this information for their actions and the small / custom shops probably do not have resources to test this even if they wanted to. I can give anecdotal I have seen but that is not accurate either. As BB likes to say livin on the edge. Some folks are ok with that. Simply pointing out some flaws in rationale I see folks going down this path should be mindful of

Lou

 

[Window]

Gday lou


Just a simple minded fella here

I'll ask for the new folks a couple points you put up

how much is never shoot enough ? & this flows into these couple of sums in the following

if a action is rated @100k & we run loads to 75/ 80 k
When can we expect a action failure 100 , 1000 , 10000 rounds or more


Now compare this to a sammi spec of 65 k loads please

Lastly loads to 100k



& please don't dismiss this as it's a legitimate question that ultimately won't only help the new folks it will also the majority imo

Cheers

Great question.

 

[Window]

Gday lou


Just a simple minded fella here

I'll ask for the new folks a couple points you put up

how much is never shoot enough ? & this flows into these couple of sums in the following

if a action is rated @100k & we run loads to 75/ 80 k
When can we expect a action failure 100 , 1000 , 10000 rounds or more


Now compare this to a sammi spec of 65 k loads please

Lastly loads to 100k



& please don't dismiss this as it's a legitimate question that ultimately won't only help the new folks it will also the majority imo

Cheers

When I first started down this rabbit hole over four decades ago, I pushed the limits on everything until I had a failure. Needless to say, I was lucky that only thing damaged was the rifle and a $500 pair of glasses. I no longer push the limits with any combo and stay on the conservative side now. That was years ago and hope to be continuing on this journey of love till I'm pushing daisies.

 

[ButterBean]

When I first started down this rabbit hole over four decades ago, I pushed the limits on everything until I had a failure. Needless to say, I was lucky that only thing damaged was the rifle and a $500 pair of glasses. I no push the limits with any combo and stay on the conservative side now. That was years ago and hope to be continuing on this journey of love till I'm pushing daisies.

First and foremost I'm glad you are ok, I do want folks to understand when I say I'm pushing it means any load I shoot deemed safe in my rifle is perfectly fine as deemed by the MAN, no hard bolt lift primers are slightly flattened and the brass holds up for 5 or so firings which is fine for me.
They greatly increased speed and flattened trajectory plays perfectly into the way I hunt, once again I want everyone to be safe but as I said before if no one colored out side of the the lines nothing would have ever happened and we'd sill be pounding rocks together trying to make a spark to start a fire, I mean no disrespect to any engineer anywhere ( and I know a bunch of them) but for the most part if it hasn't already been done and wrote down some it's just blasphemy to them.
Hammer Bullets have opened up avenues once thought far fetched or impossible but yet the " Believers" who have cleared their minds and grasped the new technology are enjoying the fruits of their labor.
If it's not for you I get it but I said earlier all these fact and figures, book maxes and so on mean little to nothing concerning Hammers as the drag reduction is so significant,

 

[MT-JONAS]

I started reading with the first post and after 5 pages I thought "enough of this, I'll go to the last page." Huh, not much improvement after 2 years?

 

[Weaver93]

I started reading with the first post and after 5 pages I thought "enough of this, I'll go to the last page." Huh, not much improvement after 2 years?

I don't know.....I now feel I can pick a fuse!

 

[RichCoyle]

This has to be the most mind spinning post/thread I've ever read through on this forum and I respect everyone's opinions. I've loaded Hammers in over fifty rifles now and some things can't be explained without extensive/expensive testing. However, one thing I've learned from this thread is that I now want a rifle built by Kirby and hope to make that happen soon.

 

[RichCoyle]

I started reading with the first post and after 5 pages I thought "enough of this, I'll go to the last page." Huh, not much improvement after 2 years?

Exactly the "engineer" think we need pressure testing equipment. The experimenters continue to experiment. Perhaps both are enjoying life to the fullest. I hope so.