What do you consider good groups?

[J E Custom]

One more comment for the poster.

What I like, and expect the accuracy to be, is not necessary in some situations but we all have to have our standards and limit our selves to that limit. That is why different opinions about group size is common.

I have known people that were happy with being able to hit a paper plate @ 100 yards. In my opinion this is not good enough because anything can happen and a poor shot is highly
possible/probable.

If you have a rifle that will consistently shoot 1/2 MOA groups, most people will do fine even though they can't shoot 1/2 MOA with it. In the hands of a poor shooter a good shooting rifle is a must to
make up for there deficiencies. (Not everyone is a great shot all the time and they have there bad days).

I personally, want a rifle that will out shoot me every time. (I have lots of bad days) and cant blame the rifle for my performance.

If a rifle shoots 2 MOA consistently, It is not acceptable (In my opinion)and must be fixed or replaced. So I would have to say that if a rifle won't shoot better than 2 MOA it should not be used for hunting by anyone.

And even though I would not be satisfied with 1 MOA consistency, it could be ok for some as long as they limited there distance.

It is very true that the best group is not the norm, the average group is what you depend on and should be the limiting factor.

Half the fun of hunting is making a fine shot (At any distance)and hitting exactly where you aim.
For this, an accurate rifle is necessary.

Just my opinion for what it's worth.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Rick Richard]

This is what I attempt to achieve every time I go out. Can I do this every time? Nope, but the pursuit of this goal is what keeps me in the game.

Realistically, any rifle that can maintain less than 1/2 MOA at longer ranges is acceptable accuracy for my standards.

 

[Bart B]

Every time I see one of those few- to several-shot groups with bullet holes 90% overlapping, I go to my medicine cabinet and take a dose of reality. It's in the form of a page showing the benchrest records at short range for the aggregate (average) of several of them.

100 yard agg records groups are under about 3/10ths MOA; approximate size of the largest one.

200 yard ones are under 4/10ths MOA or thereabouts.

300 yards, typically under 5/10ths MOA; about 1.5 inch for the largest one.

All the rest (99%+) are larger MOA values.

The holder of the smallest 5-shot group at 100 yards holds no other records.

The smallest group happens about as often as the largest one.

There's a limit as to how small a group can be; no limit whatsoever what the biggest one can be.

 

[MR.SWIFT]

if a factory rifle won't shoot .500 at 100yrs how do you hit anything at 500yds

 

[Bart B]

A rifle that shoots no worse than about .6" at 100 yards will typically shoot inside about 5.25" at 500 yards. Typical of the better commercial factory .30-06 match rifles and ammo when they were popular in NRA competition. Good factory hunting rifles have the same accuracy.

Most groups open up about 15% for every hundred yards down range after the first one.

 

[Bbear]

Depends upon the rifle set up, the conditions, the load and especially, the shooter. With my Grandfather's 30 Winchester (that's a 30-30 to most) with a 22" barreled model 94, Williams peep sight, I'm happy putting 5 shots into a 3" circle at 100 yards. Does that mean I should re-barrel it? Not going to happen.
With my 264 that's still breaking in, I'm still not happy with the .5" groups I've shot so far. But, I'll keep playing with it. That's part of the fun of all of it.

I haven't the $$ to invest in a totally custom rig and what I shoot are primarily hunting rifles. If I can get a factory gun to shoot, repeatedly, under an inch I'm fairly happy with it.

I have a Pac-nor barreled 358 win that a friend and I were messing around with at 700 yards. The rifle consistently puts 5 shots under .6 @ 100 yards. It took me 4 shots but then I started banging steel with it at that range. The 5 shots I hit the target with measured about 2.5 FEET. My friend, using my point of aim, hit it 4 straight times with a group about the same size. To me, that was an acceptable bit of accuracy for a cartridge not considered a 700 yard cartridge. Optics were an older Lecia 1 3/4-6 with a #4 reticle.

Point is, depending on what YOUR intended use of the rifle is and, what you can put into it, a good group may be pretty much anything you want. Each of us sets their own parameters and level of acceptance - as seen by the varied comments of all of the posters.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

++ What JE said.

For me "good groups" are what is needed for the task at hand.

Anytime I'm shooting paper I desire sub 1 MOA for scoped rifles and open sights sub 2 MOA is ok.

The philosophy of tighter is better is a goal not an absolute. I have achieved .15 MAO for a BR rifle. .375 for a hunting rifle.

If you have confidence in what your rifle will do with each shot then you will be in the game.

In example:

• With a hunting rifle: If you know your dirty cold bore shot will be .75 MAO high and .25 MOA left from shot 2 or 3, sight your rifle for dirty cold bore. Practice dirty cold bore. Shoot your long range shot for dirty cold bore. If a follow up shot is required, adjust accordingly.
• With a "target" rifle: If you know your cold bore POI is different (dirty or clean) from your dirty warm bore, sight your rifle for dirty warm bore.

If the hunting rifle and target rifle is one and the same then your "zero" will be different depending on the season/use. It is possible to "map" the bore and have a table of adjustments.

Hunting is always dirty cold bore. Practice and sight for dirty cold bore.
Target/tactical/range entertainment time is usually dirty warm bore.

 

[Bart B]

Commercial sporters typically shoot the first shot away from group center of the next several shots. Such is life with rough and imperfect dimensioned bores in barrels poorly fit to commercial receivers.

Good match barrels properly fit to any receiver typically shoot first then all shots to within 1/4 MOA of point of aim through 1000 yards. First shot or may be 1/6 MOA or more low at 1000 due to a clean bore shooting it out 10 to 15 fps slower than the average of the next several shots.

 

[RMulhern]

I couldn't give a 'rat's ***' less about grouping! It's where I can depend upon the first shot hitting, provided I get the wind right and make a good call! My experience over 65 years of shooting long range and hunting is that if the rifle will deliver the first shot where I am holding....in general it will also deliver adequate grouping!lightbulb

 

[J E Custom]

For me "good groups" are what is needed for the task
[*]With a hunting rifle: If you know your dirty cold bore shot will be .75 MAO high and .25 MOA left from shot 2 or 3, sight your rifle for dirty cold bore. Practice dirty cold bore. Shoot your long range shot for dirty cold bore. If a follow up shot is required, adjust accordingly.
[*]With a "target" rifle: If you know your cold bore POI is different (dirty or clean) from your dirty warm bore, sight your rifle for dirty warm bore.

+1

Hunting requirements are different than target shooting and should be dealt with differently.

When I am using a rifle for Hunting, I first find out what works best for hunting conditions with that rifle. Some rifles shoot there best with a clean cold bore. Others like a fouling shot first and then the next few shots will be good. find out which way is best for the rifle and Zero it under these conditions. the first "Predictable" shot is the most important, then at least one more Predictable follow up shot is also required in the event that it is necessary.

While shooting matches, I had to load for a fouled barrel because it was impossible to clean in the middle of a 20 shot rapid fire stage. So the most accurate load had to be based on those conditions
and not a clean barrel. (A clean barrel in my opinion is one that has no copper or powder form of fouling.

After working up a load for those conditions I found a load that would consistently stay around 1/2 MOA as long as I did my part. These were Iron site matches and that was the limit of my ability.

So I highly recommend that a person finds the load suited for the task and finds the practical limit
of how many shots will be necessary and accurate for best results.

Grouping, no mater what your requirements, are necessary to build better ammo and more confidence in your rifle and your self.

Just my 2 cents

J E CUSTOM

 

[Rich Coyle]

Good stuff.