I have taken 60 pieces of unfired new winchester brass and weight sorted it out. i now have 9 individual piles of brass ranging from 3 to a pile to 12 pieces in a group. each pile represents brass that weighs within .5 grains of each other. Ok now what are you suppose to do? I am not benchrest shooting i am using them for hunting. Is this step really nessary for long range hunting? What am I missing. What is this suppose to do for me in terms of accuracy. when hunting you dont have time to sort thru shells in a cartridge belt.
weight sorting brass, Now what?
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MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
If you're not BR shooting, or shooting for money, or for the hunt of a lifetime, I'd throw them all back into a bucket, mix them around, then load them and shoot them. 
I am not an expert, so this is just my personal opinion, but I have some rifles that can shoot sub-1/4 MOA fairly consistently, most 1/2 MOA or better every time, and I've never personally weight-sorted any brass, and that includes Lapua, Nosler, Norma, Weatherby, Federal, Remington, Winchester, Hornady, Lake City, etc....
The only brass I own that has been weight-sorted is the Nosler brass I buy. Only because Nosler does that at the factory for you, so you don't have to worry about doing it yourself.
I am not an expert, so this is just my personal opinion, but I have some rifles that can shoot sub-1/4 MOA fairly consistently, most 1/2 MOA or better every time, and I've never personally weight-sorted any brass, and that includes Lapua, Nosler, Norma, Weatherby, Federal, Remington, Winchester, Hornady, Lake City, etc....
The only brass I own that has been weight-sorted is the Nosler brass I buy. Only because Nosler does that at the factory for you, so you don't have to worry about doing it yourself.
Barrelnut
Well-Known Member
The goal in handloads for LR shooting/hunting is to make each round as identical to the others as possible. Sorting brass is just one of the small steps in that process. All of those small steps, in the end, allow the rounds to be as identical as possible. Why identical? So they will shoot the same and in particular have as identical bullet speeds as possible when leaving the barrel. The goal of sorting then is to lower the ES/SD of the loads. There further the shot the faster the bullet drops so consistent speed is important at LR. You may want to go +/- 1.5 or 2 gr., if you have too. Just depends on how the brass sorts and how much you need for your good brass group.
When you sort brass it's good to stand the brass on a table as you sort. On the table have a long piece of tape with weights written on it like a ruler. As you sort the brass this way, you will gradually have a bell curve. Take the brass from the center of the bell curve and out on each side of it until you have a single group of brass that is +/- 1 Gr.
Use that brass for long range load development and long range hunting. Use the rest of the brass for plinking and fouling, etc.
The more brass you have the better is sorts, especially if it is all from the same lot.
Some say sorting brass is a waste of time. I say they don't shoot well enough to notice. LOL. Just poking.
When you sort brass it's good to stand the brass on a table as you sort. On the table have a long piece of tape with weights written on it like a ruler. As you sort the brass this way, you will gradually have a bell curve. Take the brass from the center of the bell curve and out on each side of it until you have a single group of brass that is +/- 1 Gr.
Use that brass for long range load development and long range hunting. Use the rest of the brass for plinking and fouling, etc.
The more brass you have the better is sorts, especially if it is all from the same lot.
Some say sorting brass is a waste of time. I say they don't shoot well enough to notice. LOL. Just poking.
dok7mm
Well-Known Member
I generally start with several hundred pieces or more and sort after full length sizing and trimming to length. On smaller batches, you can sort out the extreme light and heavy ends for foulers and get 2 batches for hunting, depending on how much difference you end up with. Be sure you do all your brass prep prior to weighing. It is amazing how much the weights can change, on some lots after trimming and reaming flashholes. Watch for pieces that throw shots out of the average group and cull them or use for foulers.
MagnumManiac
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You're wasting your time.
The idea of weight sorting is to have very close internal volume, unfortunately, there is no real comparison between case weight and internal volume.
I spent days weighing, sorting and measuring case volume with a burrette and isopropyl alcohol of 500 300WM ww-super cases to no avail. Cases that were heavier than others didn't 'track' as you'd expect, some had more capacity than others, the same was true of lighter brass, it just didn't 'track' as expected.
The reason I did this was because, I, too, used to buy large batches of cases and weight sort. Even though I did this, I still had fliers, I would put them aside for later separation, then someone suggested I measure the ACTUAL volume of those cases, in every one, the capacities were different and this was with Lapua comp brass. All bags had the same batch number, obviously the brass sheet used was the same, as the weights were close, but the dies used must have differed somehow causing internal differences.
YMMV. But I doubt it.
Cheers.
Barrelnut
Well-Known Member
You're wasting your time.
The idea of weight sorting is to have very close internal volume, unfortunately, there is no real comparison between case weight and internal volume.
I spent days weighing, sorting and measuring case volume with a burrette and isopropyl alcohol of 500 300WM ww-super cases to no avail. Cases that were heavier than others didn't 'track' as you'd expect, some had more capacity than others, the same was true of lighter brass, it just didn't 'track' as expected.
The reason I did this was because, I, too, used to buy large batches of cases and weight sort. Even though I did this, I still had fliers, I would put them aside for later separation, then someone suggested I measure the ACTUAL volume of those cases, in every one, the capacities were different and this was with Lapua comp brass. All bags had the same batch number, obviously the brass sheet used was the same, as the weights were close, but the dies used must have differed somehow causing internal differences.
YMMV. But I doubt it.
Cheers.
Disagree. Have done volume test also and they do track, but not 100%. After lots of weight sorting and volume checking, and rechecking with spreadsheet tracking of various lots of brass on 2 different calibers. Final conclusion was that 80 to 85% of brass sorts the same by weight as it does by volume. Haven't done this to every piece of brass on the planet, but from various samples it seemed to hold true ( a lot like polling). So maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 will not sort the same. Personally for that margin, I weight sort instead of volume sort. Then maybe, like Doc says, if I find a bad one that's causing a flyer or vertical, I'll toss it into the plinking pile. I just figure, for my time spend, weight sorting does a good enough job. Its really those crazy ones way outside the bell curve that need to be found anyway.
I don't do volume testing until I have fired the rounds and before resizing them, so they reflect my chamber and all should then reflect true volume.
Darkker
Well-Known Member
I'm with MM on this.
I have a literal ****-ton of 308 brass from the 50's to current. It is all mixed, commercial to military. I can hold MOA to a mile, and have posted about these things (volume and shooting that far) many times on another board.
If you think it helps you in your system, great! If you think it has to be done, don't.
I have a literal ****-ton of 308 brass from the 50's to current. It is all mixed, commercial to military. I can hold MOA to a mile, and have posted about these things (volume and shooting that far) many times on another board.
If you think it helps you in your system, great! If you think it has to be done, don't.
Barrelnut
Well-Known Member
That's good. Shooting 1 mile and holding 1 MOA with a 308. What's your setup?
Darkker
Well-Known Member
Well don't get me wrong, I'm not immune to stupid wind calls
It's a almost stock 10fp. Sits in a Choate U.S. stock, re-worked 3-screw trigger, Weaver Tactical 3-15(#800363), and canted base.
That's it.
The biggest improvement for me personally is learning proper trigger control, recoil management. But when I stopped chasing absolute grains of powder, and began loading by volume; a great many difficulties went away.
Shooting A LOT, never hurts! If I go out shooting, I very rarely shoot less than 100 rounds.
It's a almost stock 10fp. Sits in a Choate U.S. stock, re-worked 3-screw trigger, Weaver Tactical 3-15(#800363), and canted base.
That's it.
The biggest improvement for me personally is learning proper trigger control, recoil management. But when I stopped chasing absolute grains of powder, and began loading by volume; a great many difficulties went away.
Shooting A LOT, never hurts! If I go out shooting, I very rarely shoot less than 100 rounds.
FearNoWind
Well-Known Member
No ....
Weight sorting your brass won't produce a 1/4 MOA improvement and 1/4 MOA at 1000 yards (a distance you shouldn't be hunting at anyway unless you can consistently put 10 shot inside a 8 inch circle at that distance) amounts to two and a half inches. Most "long range" shots are in the 500 - 800 yard range (1.25 to 2 inches). I'd spend the time working on wind reading and not get bogged down in weighing brass.
Look at it this way. If you took your .5 grain of brass off of each case and put it into a container, you'd need to take .5 grains off of 4251 pieces of brass to collect one ounce. Now consider that .5 grains of brass is not concentrated in one place on the brass case - it is relatively equally spread throughout the entire body of the case. Dloes that mean it will affect case volume? Of course it does. But only by the amount of volume occupied by the mass of .5 grains of brass.
Follow the advice of MudRunner2005 and go hunting.
Thankyou all gentleman for your input. There is a definate wide range of opinions. I think what all this has told is to do is experiment this on my own and come to my own conclusions as to its worth in time and accuracy.There is definatley merit in all the opinions given and that is what makes this web site so valuable.
J E Custom
Well-Known Member
The goal in handloads for LR shooting/hunting is to make each round as identical to the others as possible. Sorting brass is just one of the small steps in that process. All of those small steps, in the end, allow the rounds to be as identical as possible. Why identical? So they will shoot the same and in particular have as identical bullet speeds as possible when leaving the barrel. The goal of sorting then is to lower the ES/SD of the loads. There further the shot the faster the bullet drops so consistent speed is important at LR. You may want to go +/- 1.5 or 2 gr., if you have too. Just depends on how the brass sorts and how much you need for your good brass group.
When you sort brass it's good to stand the brass on a table as you sort. On the table have a long piece of tape with weights written on it like a ruler. As you sort the brass this way, you will gradually have a bell curve. Take the brass from the center of the bell curve and out on each side of it until you have a single group of brass that is +/- 1 Gr.
Use that brass for long range load development and long range hunting. Use the rest of the brass for plinking and fouling, etc.
The more brass you have the better is sorts, especially if it is all from the same lot.
Some say sorting brass is a waste of time. I say they don't shoot well enough to notice. LOL. Just poking.
+1
I personally don't feel that weight sorting is a waste of time Because it tells you more than just the approximate volume.
True it is not an exact science, But I think it is better to do it than not.
I only do it when the brass is new and after I full length size, trim to length and de burr the flash hole. I try to keep the sorted brass within 1 grain. I can also tell the quality of different brands by there consistency (Number of batches).
It has for sure helped the consistency of and lowered the SDs and ESs.
Mixing brass lots and brands can lead to the occasional flier that can ruin a good group or hunt so I try to eliminate any possible problem before it happens.
As said earlier, It is part of loading quality ammo and cant hurt.
Weight sorting is not for everyone because of there needs and requirements but it makes me more confident that I have done everything possible to give the rifle the best ammo I can load.
Just my opinion for what it is worth.
J E CUSTOM
FearNoWind
Well-Known Member
elkhntr,
One last point. Only because I believe you're just getting into the weighing of brass processs which, IMO, is entirely unnecessary - especially when reloading for hunting purposes.
I hammered out a piece of brass this afternoon. (Image follows) and cut a piece weighing .5 grains. The piece measures approximately .121 x .088 x .025
You can do the math if the mass is of interest to you but consider that if this .5 grain piece of brass were to be liquified and sprayed onto the interior of your case the displacement of case capacity would be immeasurable. From a casual visual inspection I would estimate that this piece of brass, while it weighs more than a comparable mass of powder, has less total mass than one single granual of H4831SC.
One last point. Only because I believe you're just getting into the weighing of brass processs which, IMO, is entirely unnecessary - especially when reloading for hunting purposes.
I hammered out a piece of brass this afternoon. (Image follows) and cut a piece weighing .5 grains. The piece measures approximately .121 x .088 x .025
You can do the math if the mass is of interest to you but consider that if this .5 grain piece of brass were to be liquified and sprayed onto the interior of your case the displacement of case capacity would be immeasurable. From a casual visual inspection I would estimate that this piece of brass, while it weighs more than a comparable mass of powder, has less total mass than one single granual of H4831SC.
Attachments
After you trim the brass and champfer the flash holes, the weight of each piece will differ.
If you wanna weigh brass, do so only with virgin brass. I only use Lapua brass, and it is never very far off, so that I eliminate this unnecessary step.
