U.S. army sniper school

[lerch]

I've been reading all of this and amazingly just had a first had experince with it. Some of our shops frequent customers are ex-SWAT snipers and current SWAT snipers. They have all seen the pics of me and BJ popping pdogs out to 1100yds and I have shown them pics of all of you guys one here. Some of them are amazed and impressed and some call BS and say there is no way

These same guys will argue with me to the bitter F-ing end that the 308 is greatest long range round ever created. I have tried to talk to them about other more ballistically profecient rounds and all they say is "then why doesnt the military use it"
I have asked to to go shoot with me and set up milk jug at 1200yds and they say "well i dont have my dope for the 308 at 1200" , or the 308 wont make it that far, which is complete BS but if it didnt then didnt they already prove my point?????

As much as all of these guys **** me off i was amazed to have a local SWAT sniper i have talked to before call me up and ask for my help in a idea of his. He is tired of hearing all of his fellow officers praise the 308 above anything else and he wants to show them up. He wanted to find a Savage short action in something like the 270wsm or 300wsm. I told him that he would be better off to go with the custom route in the 300 wsm or maybe even the 7 wsm.
He said he couldnt afford that and he liked the results me and BJ got with the factory 243win we used past 1k. Me and him never really reached a conclusion on the whole thing but he is gonna come in and talk some more.
I just dont understand the mentality with these guys constantly short citing themselves with a ballistically inferior round. I know the 308 carries a decent thump with it out at long range but wind drift and energy loss are still worse something in say .284 caliber, or if they are gonna shoot the .308 caliber why not in something like a 300wsm and shoot the 180 or 200gr bullets???

And what about the 6.5x284, i dont know what the energy is a 1k but isnt it one of the most accurate muzzle to 1k rounds ever???

I dont have time right now to research the BC's and run all of the numbers but I would be interested to see what the 300wsm, 7mmwsm, and 6.5-284 would do compared to the 308 168gr SMK or the 175gr SMK

Just more stupid crap that runs through my mind during the day /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

take it easy
steve

 

[704]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I might getto find out first hand. My recruiter is very impressed with my shooting abilities and knowledge that I have aquired. He said the ARMY is always looking for great shooters. It was always my dream to be a scout sniper, but the more I think of it, the less I really wanna do it. I dont want bullets flying at me. Thats why I still think I"m going to the medical field. I will probly go into ARMY marksmen however and see how that goes. I leave for my physical and to sign my life away on THursday in Spokane. I'll be leaving around the end of March.

[/ QUOTE ]


you can get a Special Forces Contract but not a Scout Sniper contract, they do not exist.....

you will have to be 11B first-Infantry, then you can try out for A Recon/scout PLT, if you make it, then you can ask or be selected for Sniper slot, If you get that then you have to pass the course, I am telling you it is not easy.
Do not be miss led by Recruiters trying to fill the bill for his or her month..

on the same note, go 18D Special Forces Medic and then you can apply for Sniper course easy, once Tabed

 

[Bart B]

In 1971 while on active duty in the US Navy, my detailer in the Pentagon called me and said a SEAL Team Training Center in Hawthorne, Nevada wanted to get me on board as a sniper. A few weeks later they called my detailer and asked again but this time it was for me to be an instructor. Bless my detailer, he didn't let me go as I was already in a critical billet for the Vietnam situation. And besides, he said, it was risky business as a sniper and many instructors went to 'Nam with their students. Seems the USN had records on who had earned the USN Distinguished Marksman Badge and those people were who they were after for the SEAL teams; I learned all this at a Navy reunion a couple of years ago talking to one of the guys that was stationed at the Hawthorne, NV site.

I did some investigating and learned some stuff about what they did cover in their courses. Very little ballistics was covered; the shooters didn't need to know it. They got good training on wind doping in learning how to read mirage or heat waves through spotting scopes and what their zeros were for different ammo types they might use in their rifles. Most of their training was learning how to be sneaky but some naturally was in marksmanship.

The US Navy's Small Arms Match Conditioning Unit in San Diego made virtually all the rifles used by their SEAL Team Snipers. Remington 700 actions with match grade barrels made for Lake City M118 ammo epoxy bedded in synthetic stocks wearing Redfield 3x9 scopes. After each one was built, it was taken to their 600 yard test range, clamped in a machine rest then various lots of M118 ammo was tested. When a good ammo lot was found two cans (920 rounds) of it were packaged with the rifle then shipped to a Seal Team. Most of the time the rifles would stay inside of 5 inches at 600 yards with the ammo shipped with them. Not bad for ammo that had to shoot about 10 inches at 600 yards by Lake City Arsenal specs. Accuracy dropped to about 6 inches at 600 yards when the 20-inch long 2-inch diameter silencer was put on.

The Unit also modified a few M1 Garands they had rebarreled to 7.62mm NATO for the USN Rifle Team by adapting M14 magazines to fit. These would shoot almost as good as the Rem. 700's using M118 ammo. When fed the "Mexican Match" ammo favored by the USN Rifle Team, these M1's would equal the Rem. 700's for accuracy. This ammo was M80 ball made by Lake City Arsenal using IMR4475 powder packaged in 8-round clips for the Navy but had the 147-gr. bullet replaced with a Sierra 168 Int'l. match bullet. Not surprising as the Navy's converted M1 Garands were more accurate than the US Marine Corps' or Army's best M14NM's available at the time. The Unit's manager once told me that if they could find some non-hollow point bullets that would shoot well in these M1's they would have proposed they be used as the standard US military sniper rifle.

 

[Bart B]

Lerch, you ask: "And what about the 6.5x284, i dont know what the energy is a 1k but isnt it one of the most accurate muzzle to 1k rounds ever???"

In talking with folks who've won matches and set records firing the 6.5x.284, it really isn't more accurate than the 30 caliber magnums it replaced. It's just easier to shoot accurate because of less recoil while the bullet's going down the barrel. And the bullets buck the wind better. Plus it's easier to make accurate reloads 'cause it doesn't have than horrible H&H belt to contend with; you gotta use a second full-length sizing die to reduce the H&H style case body diameter all the way back to that belt.

 

[D.P.]

"From my direct observtions I'd agree that many of the snipers in the schools do not have the background in ballistics. That being said I also believe they don't need as in-depth a knowledge base in ballistics as we may believe. These fellas are basically training to be observers then shooters, very good shooters, maybe hunters of men would be better. They are quite often autonomous, operate on their own with their observer and make decision in the field as to targets selection. A good deal of training going into concealment and observation with emphasis on seeing and retaining details. These guys are trained to see, remember and report details. They typically shoot 7.62 NATO (~308 Win) with issue ammunition either M118LR (Long Range, 175 Sierra MatchKing) or the older M118SB (Special Ball, 173 FMJ Lake City) and lastly anything they can get (delinked 147's). I believe only the AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit) uses special, hand-made, ammunition and the deployed guys use issue ammo."

Dave
Well said, It's a package.
Like the saying....... " An average marksman with superior tactics will defeat a superior marksman with average tactics"
LERCH.... I may get bashed for this but for the most part MOST PART there are exceptions Local Law Enforcement= Marksman.
Often times shots being WELL under 100ysrds

 

[Centre Punch]

I always thought your guys came over to Britain to be trained properly, just like you do with your Top-Gun pilots!!!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ian.

 

[goodgrouper]

Thanks everyone for your great information! SOunds like the marine snipers are better equipped and better trained than the army snipers. As such, I wonder if they are called in to special situations more often.


Lerch,

[ QUOTE ]
These same guys will argue with me to the bitter F-ing end that the 308 is greatest long range round ever created. I have tried to talk to them about other more ballistically profecient rounds and all they say is "then why doesnt the military use it"


[/ QUOTE ]

I have had this exact same conversation with a few army guys here and their response was identical. I know the 308 is a good round but there are so many better rounds! Can you imagine if the military got a good deal on a bunch of 6mm, 8" twist barrels and Eugene Stoner was a 6mm fan? We could have m16's firing 6br's with 95 grain vld's thus having superior rifle ballistics to the 308, the 223, and the 6.8 in a small, fast handling package. The military (with tax dollars in hand) could make the m16 feed the br and we'd have a standard issue infantry weapon with lethal killing ability to 1200 yards! The 308 would be going transonic or already be subsonic and the little 6br would still be screaming!

So why has the military not caught on to this? Well, you know what happens when you've been doing things one way for so long. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[BountyHunter]

Beware that SF medics and radio operators are the LAST ones to be allowed to go to sniper school, if ever. Normally 99.9% of the time it is your light and heavy weapons guys.

In 24 yrs in SF, only seen 1-2 medics and radio operators that were sent when they were in those MOS and those normally given as an unofficial re-enlistment option by the Company SGM.

BH

 

[Brown Dog]

This has been interesting reading......certainly brought a lot of the 'old soldiers' out of the woodwork! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

BuffaloBob, sounds like there might be a book in you...ever thought of giving it a go? With the 'quirky' sense of humo(u)r you show in your posts and experiences such as you described, I suspect it'd be a good read!

...off topic -ish, but given the SF slant to many of the posts; just finished reading 'Jawbreaker' by Gary Berntsen. Weak start to the book, but once it kicks into offensive ops to defeat/destroy taliban and AQ it's un-put-downable...recommended.

....no offence intended to anyone, but it's interesting to observe that the people wrapped up in calibre vs calibre for military use are the non-military/non-ex-military folks.
..again, no offence,just an observation /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Remingtonman, some sage advice has been given by previous posters; I hope you use it to go forward from here with your eyes open(ed). Good luck!

 

[KRob]

THough the topics kinda closing down i thoght id metion this.

The Major that is incharge of my class (ROTC) is SF and he and i talk huntin and shootin pretty regular.

I asked what sf used and he told me and i asked the simple question why they were shooting a 308 in a long action. He told me that originally the rifles were going to be converted over to 300wm after the first barrel. Then he told me that while he was incharge of his A team and later company they burned through multiple barrels but never changed over to 300wm. He agreed that they would be better off with a 300wm.

Additionally to secound all those other guys Rem.. the army is a heartless machine that will put you were it wants. Listen to there advice. The mil needs good people especially right now just dont go in expecting everything to go as planned.

 

[lerch]

I can understand somewhat the reasoning behind the .308 and .223 being continuosly used by military since they have always used it, though you are right there is a whole world of rounds out their with the same or less recoil that flatten the above rounds ballistically.

What I dont completely comprehend is the reasoning behind snipers using primarily the .308 round. The 6mm or 6.5 have much better ballistics and though the bullet weight of the .308 is more I would have to guess that the retained energy of at least the 6.5x284 would be more

I have no doubt the .308 is a great round, it is the orignal round I started shooting long ago. But there are MUCH better rounds for long range shooting.

take it easy
steve

 

[Bart B]

[ QUOTE ]
What I dont completely comprehend is the reasoning behind snipers using primarily the .308 round.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's a logistical situation. Using the 7.62mm NATO (.308 Win.) cartridge as a sniper round lets the sniper use any ammo of the same type if ammo shortage happens. And others using the same cartridge can use the sniper's ammo if they have to.

A friend of mine grabbed a Rem. 700 sniper from storage in an armory in Viet Nam and the only ammo available was linked stuff for some M60s and 5-round clipped stuff for charging M14 magazines. He used it farily well one afternoon.

 

[lerch]

Okay, i guess I can understand the ammo issue as far as military goes.

I still believe that there are MUCH BETTER rounds for long range shooting that are still low recoil rounds. A 6mm or 6.5mm would have better wind bucking ability and the 6.5x284 would have more retained energy.

But I guess when you have **** near the entire military shooting 7.62 you would be kinda the black sheep if you started shooting a 6br or a 6.5x284 or even a 243 win.

I guess what I have more of a problem with is some of these police and military guys who refuse to believe that Earth has ever been graced with a better long range killing machine than the .308 win with a 168gr SMK.

I guess that is the part that really doesnt make sense to me.

steve

 

[Meister]

I can imagine the main reason was stated earlier, because we have used the 308 for such a long time. Another thing to think about is kill power. A 308 punches a bigger hole than a 6mm can. Nato has adopted the round as standard so it will be tough to get the powers that be to change. What so bad about it anyways? How many global situations need a longer range round? If it does the venerable 50BMG is there to fit the bill. I know, I know- according to the kinder, gentler rules of war a 50 can only be used against hard equipment, but that guy must have a canteen or radio somewhere!
308 barrels can stay accurate for thousands of rounds whereas the 6.5-284, 338Lapua and other high power rounds eat barrels like oprah at a sizzler buffet. If the stuff hit the fan, I know the 2 rifles I would grab would be my savage 308 and my Bushmaster.