Thinking of going 6.5 PRC thoughts
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The Lapua brass is good, but is it worth 30-40% more than the cost of Hornady 6.5 PRC brass? Even then, a 6.5x284 loaded to 2.950" (the internal length of an Accurate Mags WSM magazine) will have to be pushed pretty hard to beat a 6.5 PRC at the same OAL. Likewise, shoot a PRC out of a long action and it will still beat the 6.5x284 under the same conditions.
The brass quality argument comes up a lot but I question how many people really benefit from spending the extra money on Lapua brass. If it's just a matter of being able to run higher pressures that's fine. I'd rather just move to a case with greater capacity instead of redlining a stronger case. Why try to max out a V-6 engine when you can just get a V-8?
I've drawn up 6 different wildcats based on the 375 Ruger case in some form including a .257 based on the 6.5 PRC (originally based on the 338 RCM until the PRC came out). I've worked with the 338/375 Ruger for 6 years or so and I'm waiting for my 270/375 Ruger to be built now. Mixed in there are the .358 and .416 ideas based on a shortend 375 Ruger case, but longer than the RCM, which I'm waiting on the reamers for.
The PRC is great for what it was intended to be, an affordable high performance short action chambering.
lee31
Well-Known Member
Yes Lapua brass worth it. It's much better than Hornady brass. Also why does everyone have such a hard on over short actions??? They are like 4-6 ounces lighter and have maybe 3/4 inch less throw.
How do you quantify the superiority of Lapua brass? Does the benefit out weigh the additional cost? Does Lapua's superiority mean that there's no reason to shot a chambering which wouldn't allow the use of Lapua brass? Does that make the 300 Win Mag a second rate cartridge since Lapua has never offer brass for it?
As far as the love of short actions. If that's what a guy's got sitting around then it seems like a pretty good option. Add to that the fact that it's much easier to find stocks for short actions than a long action and it gets even better. And a 3/4" shorter bolt throw is a 20-25% reduction in travel. That seems pretty worth while to me.
Here's what I have against factory ammo, last fall I had a guy call me and was convinced his 300 win. Mag had a problem he said it was shooting great but now it would only shoot 2" groups at 100. I told him to bring his gun and ammo I would have a look at it. He comes to my shop I look it over can't find anything wrong, so I set up a target at 100 and told him to shoot a group sure enough about 2" hes frustrated shows me on his phone where sure enough could put 3 you could cover with a dime at 100 with the same ammo, hornady 180 gr. I believe there superformance ammo. Then he tells me a couple days ago he was trying a different scope and he got a sticky bolt lift after he shot a round, I told him wait a minute let me set up my chrono before he shoots again. He fires a round 3175 fps!! I told him there's your sticky bolt lift I was expecting 3000 + for factory he let's another round go 3075. *** 100fps difference so I told him there's nothing wrong with his gun hes got an ammo issue. He said he had just bought 2 more boxes before he came up so I told him I wanted to look at his empty cases he had just shot he handed me the whole box of ammo I was looking for flat primers and lo and behold in that box of 20 there was 3 with brass colored primers and the rest silver. I told him that's B.S he said he had the other box in his car he went and got it and in that box there were 6 brass colored primers and the rest silver. Needless to say he was furious and was taking the ammo back were he bought it from think he said he paid 68.00 a box for it.
He didn't have any idea how much primers made a difference until I went got 3 rounds of the cheap 180 gr Remington core lok ammo and he shot those into a 5/8 inch group.
I guess if that's quality ammo then so be it.
My point is when you walk into a store and buy factory ammo you have no idea something has changed until you go through something like this guy did, that's why I started loading my own 30+ years ago.
He didn't have any idea how much primers made a difference until I went got 3 rounds of the cheap 180 gr Remington core lok ammo and he shot those into a 5/8 inch group.
I guess if that's quality ammo then so be it.
My point is when you walk into a store and buy factory ammo you have no idea something has changed until you go through something like this guy did, that's why I started loading my own 30+ years ago.
lee31
Well-Known Member
How do you quantify the superiority of Lapua brass over brass like Hornady or Winchester? Fairly easy check it for weight, concentricty and how long it last. I have some Lapua 6mmDasher brass with well over 20 firings. I also have Hornady brass for my 220 swift and 25-06 I'm lucky to get 5 or 6 shots and the primer pockets are gone. These aren't super hot loads either. And the quality is all over the place. 1/2- 3/4 less throw does what?? I can cycle a long action just fine. As far as no long action stocks available. Last time I checked Bell and Carlson,HS Precision, Manners and McMillan offer the same stocks in either long or short action. I don't judge cartridges on brass. The 300 win mag has very good brass available like Norma and Nosler.
One lot of bad ammo isn't a very good sample size but I understand your perspective. I know a lot of guys who've sent thousands of rounds of factory Hornady ammo down range with no issues like you've witnessed. I haven't shot enough factory ammo in the last 20 years to really have an informed first hand opinion on the quality of factory ammo so I just base it on what others around me have experienced. That doesn't mean that it's all perfect any more than your experience shows that it's all bad. I've had bad batches of Nosler Accubonds, Sierra MKs and Hornady SSTs,Federal 215 primers, CCI BR2 primers and bad batches of Nosler, Norma, Winchester, Hornady and Bertram brass. Heck, I've had bad barrels from Bartlein, Douglas and Benchmark as well as X-Caliber and McGowen but that doesn't make them low quality. It just means that I had a bad sample. The whole point is that for a guy who doesn't load his own ammo, the 6.5 PRC fills a niche which isn't really covered by a lot of other options.
What are the options for factory loaded short action chamberings capable of shooting a 140gr class bullet at 3000 fps? Do any of those factory loadings offer Lapua brass? There aren't any I can think of, so for the particular niche filled by the PRC Lapua brass just isn't an option. Hornady brass is absolutely capable of holding sub MOA accuracy to distances far beyond the effective range of any chambering using it assuming it's used in an equally capable rifle. So if the owner of a 6.5 PRC wants to load his own ammo, the Hornady brass isn't going to hold him back. Will he get 20 firings per case? Probably not. Worrying about brass life is similar to worrying about barrel life though, both items are consumables which are intended to be replaced.
As for the short action, look around at what's in stock and available to ship right now for a short action compared to a long action. Now try and find a long action Savage stock from Manners or McMillan in stock and ready to ship. Now ask yourself how many PRS shooters you see shooting a long action. If action length weren't an issue in a sport which revolves around speed you'd probably see more long actions in those competitions. Since the 6.5 PRC was intended to be a high performance factory chambering for use in the PRS style matches, it needed to fit into a short action in order to get even a passing consideration by that crowd.
Again, the 6.5 PRC is a great round for what it was design to accomplish. I probably wouldn't build one just because it doesn't fill a role that I need filled. I certainly wouldn't discourage somebody else from building one though.
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
Have you seen the this thread???
https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/quarter-bore-sst.204569/
Why would you even worry about a 6.5 PRC case...
The SS cartridges are great designs but the initial cost to own one will still be considerably higher than something based on the less expensive PRC case and more than many people can or will spend.
As long as I have purchased good brass (Norma, Hornady, Nosler, Lapua, federal, Winchester, etc.) from the same lot they are generally similar in weight and as long as I don't push higher pressures they all seem to have reasonable life expectancy. Push the pressures up and they all fail quickly. I generally go with Norma brass when available but have no issues with the other brands. I buy them in bulk for a specific cartridge and stay with the same brand until they begin to fail in some way. We have all had the sutuation when one of our components didn't live up to our expectations or when we changed one of our components and our problem mysteriously went away so we are sceptical from then on. When I have an accuracy-related inconsistency of some type it is usually from my rifle/shooting setup and not the loads.
The 6.5 PRC cases have been flawless so far. Have gone through 200 cases twice now experimenting with different loads and competing a bit for fun. I have been able to push toward maximum loads and they seem to be very tolerant to higher pressures. All primer pockets were tight using Winchester primers the 2nd time through, including those used to pushed the 150gr SMKs to 3150 (that is where pressure signs started and recoil was too high for my purposes). The nodes have consistently been around 3000 fps and the recoil is almost nonexistent at that speed, being mitigated by a Hollands brake on a Bartlein #3 barrel. With this cartridge shooting 140-150gr bullets out of a 12 pound setup at 3000 fps you can watch the bullet impact without losing sight of the target. That was my goal for this build and I have been able to dial in the 143 ELD-X, 142 ABLR and the 150 SMK to between 1/2 to 1/3 MOA. Will be hunting with it this year when I have no spotter.
The 6.5 PRC cases have been flawless so far. Have gone through 200 cases twice now experimenting with different loads and competing a bit for fun. I have been able to push toward maximum loads and they seem to be very tolerant to higher pressures. All primer pockets were tight using Winchester primers the 2nd time through, including those used to pushed the 150gr SMKs to 3150 (that is where pressure signs started and recoil was too high for my purposes). The nodes have consistently been around 3000 fps and the recoil is almost nonexistent at that speed, being mitigated by a Hollands brake on a Bartlein #3 barrel. With this cartridge shooting 140-150gr bullets out of a 12 pound setup at 3000 fps you can watch the bullet impact without losing sight of the target. That was my goal for this build and I have been able to dial in the 143 ELD-X, 142 ABLR and the 150 SMK to between 1/2 to 1/3 MOA. Will be hunting with it this year when I have no spotter.
MudRunner2005
Well-Known Member
I'd rather spend the money and be different, than be just like everybody else from the same cookie-cutter mold. But everyone has a choice and preference.
Being different just like everybody else, isn't really that different. The Sherman rounds are well supported proprietary rounds with a pretty good following.
Then again, trying to be a little different is the perfect reason to buy or build a 6.5 PRC. Everybody is saying to just shoot a 6.5x284 since it offers very similar performance. The PRC is the perfect way to achieve 6.5x284 performance while taking a less conventional route. Seems to me like you should be all over it!
