smokeless or BH-209

Discussion in 'Muzzleloader Hunting' started by new shooter, Feb 20, 2014.

  1. new shooter

    new shooter Well-Known Member

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    Is there anyone building a longrange muzzleloader that will shoot both smokeless and BH-209 powder. I would think if you could shoot smokeless in your muzzleloader it would work with BH-209 ? Thanks for info Joe
     
  2. Elite Muzzleloader

    Elite Muzzleloader Well-Known Member

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    What do you consider long-range? Some consider long-range 50 yards others consider long-range 500+ with a muzzleloader. There are allot of savage ml and Remington ml being converted to smokeless on Doug's message boards. Another option would be a break action 45/70. It depends on what exactly your looking for. I have a 45/70 converted that shoots smokeless it will shoot 300 to 400 but that's about it. I have a McRem build that I'm hoping to get 800 using high BC bullets we'll see though haven't tested accuracy yet though. I believe both guns will shoot black horn 209 but not durr if you'll get miss fires with it for sure. If you did it if look at a Pete's recess plug it would put the powder a little closer to primer which should help.

    Best option go to Doug's read and research as much as you can then ask a few questions. They'll get you set up with something that will work. Hope that helps, good luck.
     

  3. ENCORE

    ENCORE Well-Known Member

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    I talked with two of the major builders by phone. The rifles will shoot BH209 but, you have to remember those rifles are being built to shoot smokeless. Its what those guys do. You won't get the velocity using BH209 as they get with smokeless either, along with a very limited selection of bullets.

    I love shooting BH but, after carefully considering all my options, one being smokeless is illegal during our designated muzzleloader season, I opted for a long range rifle that was designed to shoot the substitutes... www.ultimatefirearms.com

    I'm waiting on its build now and hope to have it as soon as the snow depths drop to a manageable level. Probably end of March or April.
     
  4. new shooter

    new shooter Well-Known Member

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    WHAT I AM TRYING TO DO IS GET ONE MUZZLELOADER THAT WILL SHOT 800 YDS. With smokeless and 500 to 7 with BH 209. I would think a smokeless rifle would take more pressure then a BH 209 WOULD. You would think some gun smith could build one. At 3,000 to 4,000 dallers. Then you could hunt anywhere. Joe
     
  5. ENCORE

    ENCORE Well-Known Member

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    IMO, unless there's some magic out there that hasn't been found yet, you're not going to get that range, or rather the required energy, from BH209. From what I can find, it appears that once you get over 140grs (V) of BH, it starts throwing bullets all over. I do know you can shoot BH from some smokeless builds but, it has its limits.

    I believe if you want something to shoot smokeless, you should become a member here Home | Doug's Message Boards and talk with the guys that are well known for building smokeless muzzleloaders. Luke, Bill and others will give you real answers on what the different rifle's capabilities are.
     
  6. FrontierGander

    FrontierGander Well-Known Member

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    its called a centerfire with a nice expensive scope to make it easier for you to shoot big game.

    Lazy Slob shooters are what give real hunters a bad name.lightbulb
     
  7. new shooter

    new shooter Well-Known Member

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    You are a lot of help. I do shoot centerfires waaaaaaaaaay out there. BUll elk one shot cold bore 1155 yd. buck 1065 cold bore one shoot on an on and on. I thinks this fourm is long range hunting. I know there are people shooting shooting game at real long range with muzzleloaders so if you cant. Then just stand back and let some body do it. Thanks for your HELP. joe
     
  8. Elite Muzzleloader

    Elite Muzzleloader Well-Known Member

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    I've never tried bh209 in my conversions and from what I've read the powder column isn't big enough to handle allot of powder to do what I think your looking for. However if you can get a 140 to 180 by volume in the rifle and shoot a 275 MH you might be able to shoot 500 yards or even farther with bh209. Yet I'm not an expert so I'd recommend talking to Hillbill or Luke on Doug's.

    If you get a Pacnor or McGowen build and shoot smokeless you can shoot the 275mh up to 2800 fps or faster with a BC of .384/5 you be able to shoot 800 yards and still have around 800 to 1000 fpe at that distance.

    My goal is to be shooting the 275 Parker BE's at 2850 with a BC of .250 which should carry 800 fpe at 500. If I can get the MH to shoot MOA or better at 800 I might go that instead. Start shooting my new gun tomorrow. Again I haven't shot bh209 in my conversions so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

    I wouldn't worry about gander he only focuses on 50 yards.
     
  9. ENCORE

    ENCORE Well-Known Member

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    The thing about smokeless is that most are .45 and there are very limited bullet selections. Guys are getting 3,000fps with their smokeless rifles but, that's using smokeless propellants, sometimes wool wads or knurling bullets. You'll also find that many guys are duplexing propellants for cold weather ignition. The guys shooting BH from them are not getting that velocity, if I remember correctly. There appears to be something about BH, that anything over 140grs V is wasting powder and bullets. Most of the guys are building them with the Savage ML action, which may not take the pressure you may be seeking.

    You could check out and/or call Jeff Hankins Custom Rifles - Rifles and Pricing and Jeff may be able to help you. I believe Jeff uses the Rem 700 action in his muzzleloaders.
     
  10. new shooter

    new shooter Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the info. Joe
     
  11. FrontierGander

    FrontierGander Well-Known Member

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    why not go with a Gibbs and laugh at the other inlines? They were shooting 800-1000 yards with them in the mid-late 1800s.
     
  12. ATH

    ATH Well-Known Member

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    Lofting a bullet that far, and shooting at game that far and delivering both accuracy and energy with an appropriate bullet, are very different things.

    I'm on the cutting edge with smokeless. My rifle has been a platform for testing multiple prototype smokeless technologies.

    What you are looking for does not exist. 600 yards MAYBE, 800 yards, no. The only possible exception is literally one or two people in the nation who have set up .308/.338 bullets nested in precision-machined sabots made one at a time on a lathe from special plastics. None of the saboted or sabotless options available to the rest of us can deliver the performance you seek.
     
  13. Elite Muzzleloader

    Elite Muzzleloader Well-Known Member

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    I really don't see how you came to this conclusion. Not trying to be a jerk yet there are several YouTube videos of Gunwerks shooting deer and antelope at 500 yards +. A 715 yard video of an antelope being shot to be exact.

    [ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=08j4u6tL0RU[/ame]

    Here is a chart of a 275 Match Hunter .384 BC being shot at 2800 fps (which can be shot to 3000 fps). Which is more than capable of a 800 yard shot providing the shooter has put in enough range time.

    Slope angle, degrees: 0.0

    Cartridge: Cartridge

    Bullet weight, grains: 275.0

    Bullet speed, f/s: 2800.0
    at temperature, °F: 45.0
    Temperature coefficient, %: 2.5

    Ballistic coefficient (G1): 0.384
    Rifle: Rifle 1

    Zero Distance, yards: 200.0

    Scope height, inches: 1.8

    Vert. click, MOA: 0.25

    Hor. click, MOA: 0.25

    Zeroing weather. Enabled

    Altitude, feet: 4000.0

    Temperature, °F: 45.0

    Pressure, inHg: 29.53

    Weather

    Altitude, feet: 4500.0

    Temperature, °F: 45.0

    Pressure, inHg: 29.53

    Wind speed, mph: 0.0

    Wind direction, degrees: 90.0

    Distance, yards Bullet speed, f/s Energy, ft-lbf

    100.0 2556.4 3990.6 0.12 -1.77 -1.68 0.0
    125.0 2497.7 3809.3 0.15 -1.85 -1.42 0.0
    150.0 2440.0 3635.2 0.18 -1.61 -1.02 0.0
    175.0 2382.9 3467.1 0.21 -0.98 -0.54 0.0
    200.0 2326.8 3305.8 0.24 0.00 0.00 0.0
    225.0 2271.3 3150.1 0.27 1.42 0.60 0.0
    250.0 2216.9 3000.8 0.31 3.23 1.23 0.0
    275.0 2163.1 2856.9 0.34 5.51 1.91 0.0
    300.0 2110.2 2719.1 0.38 8.23 2.62 0.0
    325.0 2058.1 2586.3 0.41 11.46 3.36 0.0
    350.0 2006.9 2459.3 0.45 15.16 4.14 0.0
    375.0 1956.7 2337.8 0.49 19.45 4.95 0.0
    400.0 1906.8 2220.2 0.53 24.25 5.79 0.0
    425.0 1858.3 2108.5 0.57 29.69 6.67 0.0
    450.0 1810.0 2000.5 0.61 35.75 7.59 0.0
    475.0 1762.8 1897.4 0.65 42.48 8.54 0.0
    500.0 1716.5 1799.2 0.69 49.92 9.53 0.0
    525.0 1670.9 1704.8 0.74 58.07 10.56 0.0
    550.0 1626.0 1614.4 0.78 67.01 11.64 0.0
    575.0 1581.7 1527.6 0.83 76.77 12.75 0.0
    600.0 1538.4 1445.1 0.88 87.40 13.91 0.0
    625.0 1495.7 1366.1 0.93 98.94 15.12 0.0
    650.0 1454.1 1291.0 0.98 111.46 16.38 0.0
    675.0 1413.1 1219.2 1.03 125.00 17.69 0.0
    700.0 1372.7 1150.6 1.08 139.65 19.05 0.0
    725.0 1333.0 1085.0 1.14 155.43 20.47 0.0
    750.0 1294.0 1022.4 1.19 172.44 21.96 0.0
    775.0 1255.9 963.1 1.25 190.75 23.51 0.0
    800.0 1218.5 906.6 1.31 210.43 25.12 0.0
    825.0 1181.8 852.8 1.38 231.61 26.81 0.0
    850.0 1145.7 801.5 1.44 254.33 28.57 0.0
    875.0 1110.2 752.7 1.51 278.70 30.42 0.0
    900.0 1075.8 706.7 1.58 304.84 32.34 0.0
    925.0 1041.7 662.6 1.65 332.87 34.36 0.0
    950.0 1008.5 621.1 1.72 362.91 36.48 0.0
    975.0 975.7 581.3 1.80 395.08 38.70 0.0
    1000.0 943.9 544.0 1.87 429.57 41.02 0.0
    Strelok.Ballistic calculator for Android

    If he shoots the ultimate at 2400fps using blackhorn209 he should be able to get to around 700 yards.
     
  14. Elite Muzzleloader

    Elite Muzzleloader Well-Known Member

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