Rifles in the rain *important*

[Len Backus]

The comments below came to me in an email from Don G.

While I'm not a member I do love to read the forums and the Wet barrel with the carbon ring thread is very interesting to me. Spent 38 years as an intell analyst for the Army and was also a competitive shooter and am now a long range hunter.

As a analyst, I quickly learned that you must view info from every conceivable perspective. Thus far, the best data on the wet barrel was provided by the gentleman that soaked the end of the barrel in water and then measured the velocity and accuracy. A solid indicator of the effect of water in the barrel.

The carbon ring is another matter. Here is my read on the carbon ring. If the ring were only a uniform .001" thick, would that not, in effect, reduce the barrel inside diameter by .002"? If so, would that not swage the bullet .002" smaller in diameter? How much would .002" of wear effect the accuracy of a formerly sub-MOA barrel? I believe the bullet being reduced in diameter by the ring allows that bullet to simply rattle down the bore with considerably less accuracy.

What we are doing here is increasing the difficulty in analysis by combining two separate problems. Finding out what built up the carbon ring is the hard part. Only the person starting this thread could replicate the conditions under which the carbon ring occurred. If he can replicate those conditions and test a dry barrel with the ring for accuracy can the problem truly be solved. After all, the reduction of bullet diameter is only my theory until proven otherwise but I believe approaching the solution from the perspective of the bullet rather than from bore condition alone opens up more possibilities.

Where multiple conditions exist, separate them to make a more valid analysis. Then, the simplest answer is most likely the correct answer.

 

[dougw]

For me I only tested the bullet in flight I came to the conclusion that moisture in the air was causing my rounds to hit higher I was told water would always slow a bullet down and even stop it. I talked to a physicist at work and he said that water in the air displaces some the molecules in the air so there is less friction between them meaning straight air. I shoot a 338 edge 300 grain smks and I have tested this several times and it is repeatable with this gun but I haven't tried with other guns I just took his word for it.

 

[elkaholic]

The comments below came to me in an email from Don G.

Interesting theory! I believe in my case, the carbon ring was not actually a ring, but was about 1/3 of a ring, or 80-90 degrees. I keep the throat fairly clean because I have experienced carbon rings, and their affect in the past, rain or no rain. I say that it was only 1/3 because of the evidence on the patch after soaking for many hours. Usually when a carbon ring is completely around the circumference, things really go south, even in a dry bore. I think my throat had carbon that was not an issue, but adding the water which swelled the carbon, caused some issues by putting pressure on one side of the bullet. (again this is theory). I believe, especially after reading some of the other posts, water can cause a variety of issues besides carbon swelling. Some others mentioned were just a wet bore which would clear up after firing a single round, water between the barrel and stock, water in the chamber, etc., etc.! I don't know that we could ever determine all the possibilities, or total prevention, but it is clear that there are things we can do to alleviate the problem including taping the muzzle, protecting the action in some way, running a dry patch through the bore at night, carrying the rifle in a protective cover, and more. I also believe it might be advantageous to go into the field with as few fouling shots as possible after a thorough bore (and throat) cleaning........Rich

 

[RH300UM]

Interesting theory! I believe in my case, the carbon ring was not actually a ring, but was about 1/3 of a ring, or 80-90 degrees. I keep the throat fairly clean because I have experienced carbon rings, and their affect in the past, rain or no rain. I say that it was only 1/3 because of the evidence on the patch after soaking for many hours. Usually when a carbon ring is completely around the circumference, things really go south, even in a dry bore. I think my throat had carbon that was not an issue, but adding the water which swelled the carbon, caused some issues by putting pressure on one side of the bullet. (again this is theory). I believe, especially after reading some of the other posts, water can cause a variety of issues besides carbon swelling. Some others mentioned were just a wet bore which would clear up after firing a single round, water between the barrel and stock, water in the chamber, etc., etc.! I don't know that we could ever determine all the possibilities, or total prevention, but it is clear that there are things we can do to alleviate the problem including taping the muzzle, protecting the action in some way, running a dry patch through the bore at night, carrying the rifle in a protective cover, and more. I also believe it might be advantageous to go into the field with as few fouling shots as possible after a thorough bore (and throat) cleaning........Rich

+1 and more

+1

 

[Gord0]

Just read through all 27 pages. Lots of good info, theories, and suggestions. I'll toss mine out there too. Carbon ring is going to compress your bullet. Depending on how big it is, or has swollen to who knows how much the bullet is being compressed. Water can't be compressed, that is a known fact. It can act like a solid at high speeds, along with a lubricant. Although not a very good one. Your slightly compressed bullet runs into this water in the barrel at many different points which is essentially like being struck by a bunch of almost unmovable objects in the bore. The water even if it is an even coating down the barrel is going to compress the bullet even more than it already is. It is now going to start to yaw from uneven strikes and being too small for the grooves. It also has some lubricant from the water as it glides over, and is compressed by it. Bullet exits barrel and only the Lord knows where it's going. Why didn't the rifle go back to its original poi after the first shot? I don't think all of the water was burned out of the barrel after the 3 shots that were taken, along with the possibly swollen carbon ring. The flame in the barrel was only there for a millisecond. Kind of like if you run your finger over the top of a lighter real quick, you don't get burned. Just the rambling thoughts of an engineer that is in way over his head on this one. It's a very intriguing problem though.

 

[parshal]

Does anyone have any pictures of a carbon ring? I've got a bore scope but I'm not sure how large a ring (at least from a picture) must be to have an effect. Maybe someone has some pictures of light, moderate and severe carbon rings.

Like elkaholic said, heading into the field with few fouling shots might be best practice. I usually clean the bore well and verify my zero with 10 or so shots for a good fouling.

 

[Predator 22]

Just read through all 27 pages. Lots of good info, theories, and suggestions. I'll toss mine out there too. Carbon ring is going to compress your bullet. Depending on how big it is, or has swollen to who knows how much the bullet is being compressed. Water can't be compressed, that is a known fact. It can act like a solid at high speeds, along with a lubricant. Although not a very good one. Your slightly compressed bullet runs into this water in the barrel at many different points which is essentially like being struck by a bunch of almost unmovable objects in the bore. The water even if it is an even coating down the barrel is going to compress the bullet even more than it already is. It is now going to start to yaw from uneven strikes and being too small for the grooves. It also has some lubricant from the water as it glides over, and is compressed by it. Bullet exits barrel and only the Lord knows where it's going. Why didn't the rifle go back to its original poi after the first shot? I don't think all of the water was burned out of the barrel after the 3 shots that were taken, along with the possibly swollen carbon ring. The flame in the barrel was only there for a millisecond. Kind of like if you run your finger over the top of a lighter real quick, you don't get burned. Just the rambling thoughts of an engineer that is in way over his head on this one. It's a very intriguing problem though.

This was along my line of thought as well. What if the bullet is striking the water with such force that it is deforming, affecting the balance of the bullet in flight? Unless you could find a way to catch a bullet without distorting it I don't know how this theory could be tested.

 

[dougw]

I don't know how water in a barrel could do that much I know in 1974 that piece of crap M16 still shot full of water but it would not shoot with any thing else in it like powder carbon or bullets if you didn't stop and clean it every 10 minutes Hell it probably had 10 carbon rings one for every other shot.

 

[elkaholic]

Gordo....My situation was not from remaining water because it would not shoot even after I was home and completely dried out. It did not come back to original poi and group until I Completely removed the carbon ring by soaking the throat in solvent for hours. I think the carbon retains moisture for some time and probably remains swollen somewhat because of that.

Parshal...... You could see a carbon ring with a bore scope but it does not take much to wreck havoc. When you consider the throat is normally only .0005" over bore diameter, you can easily see how very little can have a very big affect. .0002" up of down in throat size can have a sizable affect in pressure, and who knows what it does to a bullet when carbon is involved.
I have learned over the years to treat the throat LIKE YOU DO HAVE A CARBON RING even if it isn't present. The problem this time was carbon plus water, (IMO) which I learned was a whole different animal. To eliminate the carbon problem, I now take a patch, soaked with a good carbon solvent, and stuff it into the throat after cleaning well as you normally would. I leave it there for a day or even two days. I then punch the patch out by inserting the rod into the bore and look at the patch. If there is a deposit of carbon present, you can usually see a dark ring at least part way around the patch. I then take a CLEAN wire bore brush soaked in solvent and ROTATE it in the throat. At that point I wrap a patch around an undersize bore brush and rotate that in the throat. Usually that will remove the softened carbon, but if more color still persists, soak it overnight again.
You can use gun products, or even better, automotive carbon remover products. Be careful those products aren't spilled on a nice wood stock, or somewhere else you don't want them. I have had rifles that NEVER developed a carbon ring and some that get them every few hundred rounds. The point is that you can do an otherwise good cleaning routine and STILL develop a carbon ring so prevention is the best way to go.....I hope this helps........Rich

 

[oldfortyfiveauto]

PB B really works well on carbon. I use a piece of tubing in the chamber and squirt it in with the muzzle down. Let set for 5-10 minutes.

 

[elkaholic]

PB B really works well on carbon. I use a piece of tubing in the chamber and squirt it in with the muzzle down. Let set for 5-10 minutes.

Thans, I have not tried that one!........Rich

 

[parshal]

Thanks Rich. That's pretty much how I clean the neck as well.

I found a couple pictures online. The link is a carbon ring I've never seen in my rifles. The pic is what I do see in my rifles. I'd love to know "how bad" that second one really is. I'd only go after it if my accuracy was suffering but add your experience and I'd consider getting after it before a hunt.

the carbon ring | Shooters' Forum

 

[tbrice23]

PB B really works well on carbon. I use a piece of tubing in the chamber and squirt it in with the muzzle down. Let set for 5-10 minutes.

PB Blaster is THE best penetrate there is. IMO.
But it smells like hot garbage death cancer !

 

[elkaholic]

PB Blaster is THE best penetrate there is. IMO.
But it smells like hot garbage death cancer !

Thats why it works so well! If it smelled like fe fe la femme your wife would have it!