Thank you. Have you considered placing all the other members you've insulted on ignore, also?
No Hydrodynamic Shock Below 2600FPS??
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xsn10s
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Yes we are speculating on the terminology. But Ernie hit the nail on the head when he suggested we listen to the OP's question on bullet picks for black bear. In reality it would be hard to pick a bad hunting bullet for black bear with a 338 win mag lol.
move.
del2les
Well-Known Member
Parts of this discussion reminds me of my Fluid Dynamics and Hydrodynamics classes from my Physics major and Army aviation classes.
Also reminds me of the days I owned and operated an ammo business and all the studies around projectile flight and terminal ballistics.
YMMV
Edit to add: Anyone remember who basically started this controversial theory?
E. Harvey Newton and his research group at Princeton University in 1947:
It is generally recognized that when a high velocity missile strikes the body and moves through soft tissues, pressures develop which are measured in thousands of atmospheres. Actually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive temporary cavity, formed behind the missile. Such pressure changes appear to be responsible for what is known to hunters as hydraulic shock—a hydraulic transmission of energy which is believed to cause instant death of animals hit by high velocity bullets (Powell (1)).
— An Experimental Study of shock waves resulting from the impact of high velocity missiles on animal tissues
Also reminds me of the days I owned and operated an ammo business and all the studies around projectile flight and terminal ballistics.
YMMV
Edit to add: Anyone remember who basically started this controversial theory?
E. Harvey Newton and his research group at Princeton University in 1947:
It is generally recognized that when a high velocity missile strikes the body and moves through soft tissues, pressures develop which are measured in thousands of atmospheres. Actually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive temporary cavity, formed behind the missile. Such pressure changes appear to be responsible for what is known to hunters as hydraulic shock—a hydraulic transmission of energy which is believed to cause instant death of animals hit by high velocity bullets (Powell (1)).
— An Experimental Study of shock waves resulting from the impact of high velocity missiles on animal tissues
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Ernie
SPONSOR
88 grain ELD-M out of a 15.9" 22 GT. I wasn't above 2700 fps, but my impact velocity wasn't below 2600, so it really doesn't count for this discussion.
Just trying to lighten things up a bit
It reminded of my flightline days working on F4s and A10s but sounds like you are more qualified to make sense of the thread.
gvjm
Well-Known Member
My 2 cents, the most hydrostatic/hydraulic shock I've seen was from my 7 mag. It's got a 26" barrel and runs at top velocities. A 154 SST at 3150 on a deer at 104 yards, rear quartering shot through the lungs. Upon cleaning there were no lungs! They were totally liquified! I've never seen this before. My son in law shoots a 270 with same shot at 75 yards. We found only one identifiable lung, the other was liquified. Neither animal took a step. H/H shock will cause extensive internal damage and usually but not always cause larger exit wounds
It reminded of my flightline days working on F4s and A10s but sounds like you are more qualified to make sense of the thread.
This has been an interesting read (at least some of it). By far the best response was from @bultinkle. The best laugh I've had all day. Hydrostatic shock or whatever you want to call it is just one way of inducing death. The OP obviously read something that peaked their interest. I am going to continue to focus on shot placement and recovering the dead game animal nearby.
Idaho Lefty
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YUP,.. ^^^ Bingo !
When, the .338 Win. Mag. with, any of, the "Normal" cup / core,.. 210's, 225's or 250 grain Bullets, QUITS Killing, Big Game, I'll eat my Hat !
It'll Kill,.. ANYTHING, on Planet Earth, out to, MOST ANY, "reasonable" Ranges, DON'T,.. Kid, yourselves !
Hydrostatic "ShocK",..' AIN'T necessary with,.. THIS, One !
The "Wickedest" Wounds, I've ever seen on Big Game, ( Nearly 60 Years of, Experience ) came from, the .264 Win Mag and 7MM Rem Mag's with 140-154 grain, Bullets, at "Ripping" speeds and 1-9 twists,.. YIKES !
They looked, just like, the Pictures posted above and,.. a LOT of Meat, was,.. LOST !
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dblman
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Baloney
Tony243
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Bullet hits animal at 2600 fps, causing shock. Ok, how fast is the bullet after 2" penetration? At 6""? At pass-through? I've seen some really nasty exit wounds on deer, made by bullets going how fast? 600, 800, 1000fps? What's the explanation there?
XSIVSPD
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Anyone that suggests we hold to a higher standard, is mocked relentlessly.
Anyone that joins the dogpile is celebrated.
What a sad society we have become. You're all better than you're acting.
Make no mistake. I don't judge people. I judge their behavior.
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100% agree. This is why so many topics and keywords are off limits on this site. It's a great place for very specific information, but if you get off that trail you better be in the majority or you're gonna have a bad day.
If only there was an open season on them...
MagnumManiac
Well-Known Member
This whole notion of "shock" killing an animal is absolute BS.
Show me a proven example of an animal being hit No where near the CNS, say in the rear ham, that instantly DIED.
I have literally removed a good portion of a deers hind quarter and the animal was still able to run.
Bullets kill by displacing tissue by the action of cavitation as they expand through those tissues, watch some slow mo of ballistic gel tests, the cavitation expands the tissue then falls back on itself.
Shock itself doesn't kill, but the damage to blood vessels and organs, including the CNS if near enough, is what kills.
Sure, small animals appear to be killed by being blown apart, but that is totally different than shooting a buffalo.
Cheers.
Show me a proven example of an animal being hit No where near the CNS, say in the rear ham, that instantly DIED.
I have literally removed a good portion of a deers hind quarter and the animal was still able to run.
Bullets kill by displacing tissue by the action of cavitation as they expand through those tissues, watch some slow mo of ballistic gel tests, the cavitation expands the tissue then falls back on itself.
Shock itself doesn't kill, but the damage to blood vessels and organs, including the CNS if near enough, is what kills.
Sure, small animals appear to be killed by being blown apart, but that is totally different than shooting a buffalo.
Cheers.
