New to ML's, Looking for advice on brands

[RJ3]

I'm new to the ML world but have no choice now since I drew an early AZ elk tag. (18 years of waiting) so now that Im being "forced" to get a muzzleloader. I'm thinking I'd like something that can reach out to the 300 yard range on the big end and realize that's about the breaking point of reasonably cost ML's to way above my pay grade ML's.

I've looked at the CVA V2 Accura LR .50cal, the Remington UML, and some of the TC loaders. I'm looking for information from people that have first hand knowledge of these guns and what they are shooting at the 200-300 ranges and with what loads.

Of course if someone has information on another brand that will be under the 1000$ mark, please let me know.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ENCORE]

I'm new to the ML world but have no choice now since I drew an early AZ elk tag. (18 years of waiting) so now that Im being "forced" to get a muzzleloader. I'm thinking I'd like something that can reach out to the 300 yard range on the big end and realize that's about the breaking point of reasonably cost ML's to way above my pay grade ML's.
I've looked at the CVA V2 Accura LR .50cal, the Remington UML, and some of the TC loaders. I'm looking for information from people that have first hand knowledge of these guns and what they are shooting at the 200-300 ranges and with what loads.
Of course if someone has information on another brand that will be under the 1000$ mark, please let me know.

Thanks in advance.

Talking in general......... and first, I have no clue about AZ muzz rules.

Shooting a muzz is a little different than CF rifles, as it takes time to work up a specific charge/sabot/bullet combination. Most inline rifles are limited to a maximum charge for long range, normally 150grs volume (except BH209, which is 120grs volume). However... long time experienced shooters can over come that by shooting heavier bullets and lower charges. Example: 525gr bullet over 100grs BP.

The CVA V2 LR gives no real advantage over a V2. The CVA, T/C and Knight rifles, with near maximum charges, will get you to 300yds using bullets of 290-300grs. Bullet velocity will be approximately 1,300fps +/-, with approximately 1,100fpe +/- (energy). I would imagine that for elk, that's at the minimum velocity/energy. Elk experts will know better than I.

The RUM has an advantage over CVA and T/C, with its higher charge capability. The heavier charge comes with a price, weight and recoil. There are three RUM shooters in my home state that are shooting MOA at 300yds, however they are shooting different loads/bullets than Remington recommends. Basically the same bullet and charges shot from the UF Inc. rifles. Just because the RU is capable of extreme charges (200grs), its not necessary to shoot a max load, and sometimes the best accuracy is with a lighter load. The UF rifles are extremely accurate with 180grs.

If it were me, an opinion only, I'd opt for the RU over the other rifles. But that's me and I'm already used to the systems.

I would suggest, if you intend to shoot 300yds at an animal, its going to take a TON of practice, practice, practice. Remember, the slower heavier bullets are affected much more by wind than a CF bullet. Purchase a higher quality scope and one with a higher variable. To many muzzleloader shooters want to shoot long range accurately with a cheap and/or low variable scope, then don't and blame it on the rifle. You can't hit what you can't see.

Just my opinions...... Good luck with your choice.

 

[RJ3]

Thanks for the response. I am familiar with ballistics and long range shooting in the CF world and understand the importance of good glass. But I'm just looking for info on loads and the ease of use and user friendly ML's at the moderate priced level.

Also if someone has one of the CVA Accura LR and has a load that is working good for them that gives me a good starting point at least. I have read some people are shooting the Powerbelt bullet with white hot pellets. Just looking for info if this set up is working or if someone else has a pattern that has worked with them and has had good accuracy to at least 200.

 

[ENCORE]

Thanks for the response. I am familiar with ballistics and long range shooting in the CF world and understand the importance of good glass. But I'm just looking for info on loads and the ease of use and user friendly ML's at the moderate priced level.

Also if someone has one of the CVA Accura LR and has a load that is working good for them that gives me a good starting point at least. I have read some people are shooting the Powerbelt bullet with white hot pellets. Just looking for info if this set up is working or if someone else has a pattern that has worked with them and has had good accuracy to at least 200.

If I were you, I'd stay completely away from Powerbelt bullets. There are just way to many other higher quality and cheaper bullets to shoot, with far fewer complaints. Without question, and you can Google it, no other bullet has received such a bad reputation as those. You will not see them shot in competition, unless its by a first time shooter who will always change after a first time.

For the CVA Accura V2, get the BH209 compatible breech plug. It can be purchased separate from either CVA or Western, along with many muzzleloader sporting goods stores.
Charges of 100 to 110grs volume of BH209 seems to be the sweet spot for just about any rifle made. 120grs volume is a maximum charge, regardless of what the rifle or manual may indicate.
Pick up a package of Barnes 290gr T-EZ bullets. Its a premium bullet which will retain nearly 100% of it's weight, short of the polymer tip.

Don't slight yourself on the products for a once in a lifetime hunt.
Good luck.

 

[Dosh]

RJ, what Unit. Some units have so many trees a 300yd shot is uncommon. A friend's brother is a big ML fan, who got Remington Ultimate last year. He says it is a dream to use.

 

[RJ3]

I drew unit 27 and know I may not need and most likely won't need a 300 yard shot and honestly with that hunt I should be under 100. But I'm just shopping for one gun with a reasonable price that can get out there for the money. Since I had 18 years of waiting for elk and 15 years of waiting on a antelope tag, I'm hoping I'll get to use the gun again and may want the 300 yard capabilities.

But I'm pretty set on the CVA V2 LR but looking for info about loads now. Seems like a lot of the rounds are pushing 100 grains of powder but I'm in a fight now about what grain bullet and type (sabot or power belt) to get the best FPS vs energy gains or losses. I don't want to blow my once in a lifetime hunt.

 

[ENCORE]

............But I'm pretty set on the CVA V2 LR but looking for info about loads now. Seems like a lot of the rounds are pushing 100 grains of powder but I'm in a fight now about what grain bullet and type (sabot or power belt) to get the best FPS vs energy gains or losses. I don't want to blow my once in a lifetime hunt.

I HIGHLY suggest you consider using a bullet other than a powerbelt. I'm not saying that a powerbelt may not kill an elk, but there are way to many variables with them, along with to many horror stories of lost game. Those horror stories are not all from poorly placed shots either. One type bullet only functions between "X and Y" fps, where the next only functions between "A and B" fps. Drive one too hard and it will splatter on impact. Drive another and it will pencil through. Hit a heavy bone and plan on a long tracking job and possibly a lost animal. Behind the counter guys are just that and will sell you anything. The last person you should to take advice from, is someone who is, or has been, sponsored by powerbelt.

I'll suggest to you again that powerbelt bullets are just not used in competition, at least not over once, and always by a new shooter. Now competitions do not necessarily represent a bullet's energy, but they do represent a bullet's accuracy capabilities. Having shot the matches at the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association (NMLRA), you will not find serious shooters using powerbelt bullets, short of a first time shooter. Once he/she identifies that the bullet isn't being shot by anyone else and ends up with a very low score, if they plan on returning they find another more accurate bullet.
NOTE: Equipment lists showing bullets used are available.

If you want to maintain energy and velocity, premium bullets of 290 to 300grs will give you want you want/need, and shooting BH209 with charges of 110 to 120grs volume will get you there. Swabbing between shots is generally never required when using BH209, so a follow up shot can be made quickly. Magnum 209 primers are recommended by Western when using BH209 and NEVER primers designated for muzzleloaders. http://www.blackhorn209.com/
Spit-Fire T-EZ | Barnes Bullets

I've shot muzzleloaders since 1973, almost exclusively and just about every bullet that has came down the road. If I waited 18 years for an elk tag or 15 years for an antelope tag, believe me, the last bullet I would consider would be a powerbelt. And most definitely not for shots to 200yds or beyond.

Good luck.

 

[RJ3]

Encore thanks for the info. I have started looking into some of the other rounds and see the sabot's and some others that are just straight copper i guess. I am not challenging you on your experience but I have been seeing a lot of reviews on the powerbelt shooting sub MOA at 100 yards. Now just the FPS limits for the bullet to expand or pencil through are concerning and I am leaning away from them now, but what if these need a specific FPS to perform properly, how and why is the construction of a sabot any different?

With the the rounds you are recommending, you keep saying to shoot the BH209 powder I believe? Have you shot these rounds with let say the white hot pellets? I hear they burn cleaner than most powder and burn faster also, but with the ease of loading these instead of a new'bie fumbling with a powder charge may help me I think.

Thanks again for the info.

 

[ENCORE]

Encore thanks for the info. I have started looking into some of the other rounds and see the sabot's and some others that are just straight copper i guess. I am not challenging you on your experience but I have been seeing a lot of reviews on the powerbelt shooting sub MOA at 100 yards. Now just the FPS limits for the bullet to expand or pencil through are concerning and I am leaning away from them now, but what if these need a specific FPS to perform properly, how and why is the construction of a sabot any different?

With the the rounds you are recommending, you keep saying to shoot the BH209 powder I believe? Have you shot these rounds with let say the white hot pellets? I hear they burn cleaner than most powder and burn faster also, but with the ease of loading these instead of a new'bie fumbling with a powder charge may help me I think.

Thanks again for the info.

I understand you need information and have questions. We all started at one time and believe me, even "old dogs" can learn new things. The only stupid question is the one not asked.
What you should consider as far as bullets go, is not so much that they have to be shot between speed "A&B" but at a bullet's minimum speed to function properly. Great bullets do not splatter on impact, nor do they have to be shot within a certain minimum and maximum speed to function properly. However, most will have a minimum speed for them to expand properly, and in most cases that minimum speed is very close to the minimum energy required.

Powerbelt base is just that and its the only thing that seals the propellant from the bullet. If the bullet doesn't obturate to the lands and groves, it can actually wobble when going down the barrel. The way to get the bullet to do it properly, is to soften the lead in the bullet. Same reason heavy conical shooters use soft lead bullets.
I'm not saying some shooters can't get MOA at 100yds, but witnessing it would be proof. Look at it this way as EXAMPLE only: Your barrel measures .504. Your friend's barrel measures .502. You shoot the same bullet and it loads easy in both barrels. With only the same skirt on the bullet, which rifle will most likely shoot the best?
Take the saboted bullet. Its fully encased in the sabot, which prevents it from wobbling when going down the barrel. It also has a skirt, but it also runs the entire length of the bullet. Its similar when shooters shoot heavier paper patched bullets. The bullet is encased in the paper, which keeps it from wobbling, seals the bore, then unwinds after the bullet leaves the barrel.

As far as shooting BH209 and Barnes bullets, I've shot many thousands of them. I've shot up to 2,000 rounds a year. If my Ultimate would shoot BH209 and Barnes bullets accurately to 400yds, I'd be shooting and hunting only with BH209 and Barnes bullets. As far as white hots, I have no experience with that propellant.

Here's a couple photos for you to examine. The first, a powerbelt shot with IIRC, 110grs of 2f. The whitetail I took with it, was 100yds away in a picked corn field. The bullet passed through the whitetail, with proper shot placement, then recovered from the dirt in the field. Had I not watched the deer run and fall, I'd most like not found that deer, as there was no blood, on snow!




Here's what a Barnes looks like inside a sabot.




Here's what a recovered Barnes looks like.

 

[RJ3]

Well dang, that's proof I'm looking for. I had questions about how the bullet was going to hit the lands and groves but figured with the skirt it would allow more to hit but I was backwards to think that. I just cringed about having the plastic of the sabot do the work of spinning the bullet before it left the barrel. But I will give those a shot. I like the bullet keeping its weight and getting that penetration but I don't want to pencil an elk and loose it. I still may try the white hots and see what I get out of those and will chronograph them and Ill let you know what I find out. But it will be a couple weeks honestly with my work schedule. That and assuming I dont blow myself up the first shot.

 

[ENCORE]

I've had a couple good days shooting with T7 pellets, sabots and 300gr bullets from my Ultimate BP Xpress. Note I was using a rear bag with these groups.





First attempt at 500yds. Witnessed and signed.

 

[RJ3]

Great groups, except I'm sure the Express BP cost is more than i can sneak away from the wife. Im still getting asked why i put in for the ML hunt when I didnt have a ML. HaHa, SO I CAN BUY A MUZLE LOADER, didnt fly vary well.

But since I may have an idea on the bullet and gonna try the white hot pellets first and see how that works, but for the CVA it says a 209 primer. Is there any gain to shooting 209 primer vs 209 magnum primers?

 

[ENCORE]

Great groups, except I'm sure the Express BP cost is more than i can sneak away from the wife. Im still getting asked why i put in for the ML hunt when I didnt have a ML. HaHa, SO I CAN BUY A MUZLE LOADER, didnt fly vary well.

But since I may have an idea on the bullet and gonna try the white hot pellets first and see how that works, but for the CVA it says a 209 primer. Is there any gain to shooting 209 primer vs 209 magnum primers?

No. Not with white hots. Actually many get away with just a WIN209 using BH209.

I have a local friend that last fall purchased the same rifle as yours. Unfortunately he'd cut himself pretty bad and was in a cast.... his trigger hand. He had a tag for Iowa and talked his doctor into removing the cast, but the doc would only do it the day before he left for Iowa. He asked me to zero his new scope and rifle for him.
I met with him and zeroed his rifle for him. Although I'm not a CVA fan and even his rifle would not make me one, it shot the 290 Barnes T-EZ exceptionally accurate to 150yds.

Good luck. When you get shooting, post some target photos. Everybody likes target photos!

 

[youngbuck]

I was in the same boat a few years back. I went with a Savage ML10-II. In AZ you must use "blackpowder or synthetic blackpowder." I shoot BH209 out of my Savage. Smokeless may be legal one day in AZ, if not, I'm happy with the BH209. A few years ago my mom used it to shoot a young bull elk at 150yds. He went 30yds and piled up. I shoot Hornady 265 FTX bullets. Impact velocity should have been really close to 1330fps. Attached is a photo of the recovered bullet. That shot was using a reduced load of 80gr by volume of BH209. I have 2 buddies that have ML tags this year in AZ. I have been shooting 120gr of BH209 and coming close to 2100fps muzzle velocity with the 265gr FTX. I can get a 1.5" group at 100 regularly. I know some guys can get much better with other muzzleloaders, but I am happy with what it will do. I have not had near the experience as some on this forum with muzzleloaders. I was given some advice with the 265 FTX and BH209. It has worked well for me. If I was in the same boat today? I would really consider with the Remington Ultra. It wasn't an option when I went with the Savage, but the price on Savage has gone up. I bought a factory synthetic and upgraded to a Boyd's laminate. Good luck with that tag, it is a good one for sure.