Need scope advice ASAP, please!!!!!!!!!

[DartonJager]

As some may have noticed I have been seeking advice on buying a long range scope for a pure hunting use and just a few minuets ago received a email sale from NSS for the fallowing scope:

<>Leupold VXR CDS 4-12x40mm fire dot duplex for under $500 and need peoples input if this scope will fill my requirements for a easy to use 600 yard scope for deer and elk.

I am buying a chrono tomorrow so I will know for fact the MV/FPS of my rifles load and I like the idea of custom scope dials for my particular load and are comfortable with that type of distance compensation system where I first must determine the distance to the animal via LRF then use the custom laser engraved dials to adjust my scope and shoot. I had always intended to use a LRF to determine distance regardless of scope type I used anyhow, so the Leupold CDS I feel will work quite well for me.

So please I need input ASAP before this scope is sold out.

Thanks,

DJ.

 

[DartonJager]

While waiting for replies to my request for help, I did a Google search on reviews of Leupold CDS scopes and came across a review that raised legitimate doubts about the CDS true viability VS a MIL-Quad reticle: What do you guys think?

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Re: Leupold CDS Dials..Your experience???

« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2012, 07:44:14 PM »



I guess we will have to agree to disagree. There is a reason why almost all of the long range shooters run MOA turrets though.

What do you do if the weather or elevation is different from what was made for the turret? I ran some quick numbers through my ballistics program and came up with this @ 800 yds. I assumed a 168 gr bullet @ 3000 fps with a G7 B.C. of .316. A bullet with less of a B.C. will even be a bigger spread:

AT 80* and 24.0 inHg (6000 ft.)
800 yds = Drop of -130.07" or 15.53 MOA
825 yds = Drop of -140.50" or 16.27 MOA

AT 30* and 29.92 inHg (sea level)
800 yds = Drop of -145.08" or 17.32 MOA
825 yds = Drop of -157.27" or 18.21 MOA

How do you go back and forth between yardage and Moa and then back to yardage to make any changes. Lets say you were only going to hunt at one elevation and just the weather would change the 50 degrees. There will be a miscalculation on your turret of 6". I understand you would probably have your turret made for a temp in the middle, but these temps are very realistic if you are going to use this rifle from August bear season to general deer in our state (most likely be hotter and colder).

Lets say we compound this error with a gun that can only shoot 1 MOA. That means there is 8" of error in the gun/shooter and 6" of error in the turret for a 14" impact from the aim point.

Another issue is the cosine value for shooting up or down but with todays range finders with true horizontal distance this is easily avoided.

All I am saying is that in my example there is over a 30" difference (and this is a premier bullet for long range hunting) between 25 yards with the hunting conditions I have stated.

All I am saying is that before people pick up a gun/scope combo with a CDS they need to know about all the variables before clicking around with their scope and shooting, especially before an animal is introduced.

I hunt or plan to hunt all over the place from Sea Level in the Willapa Hills to above 12,000 ft. in Colorado. I will never need another turret. Also to open a bigger can of worms how do you account for the 40" of drift with a full value viability VS a MIL-Quad adjustment system at the website "

 

[DartonJager]

While waiting for replies to my request for help, I did a Google search on reviews of Leupold CDS scopes and came across a review that raised legitimate doubts about the CDS true viability VS a MIL-Quad reticle: What do you guys think?

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Re: Leupold CDS Dials..Your experience???

« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2012, 07:44:14 PM »



I guess we will have to agree to disagree. There is a reason why almost all of the long range shooters run MOA turrets though.

What do you do if the weather or elevation is different from what was made for the turret? I ran some quick numbers through my ballistics program and came up with this @ 800 yds. I assumed a 168 gr bullet @ 3000 fps with a G7 B.C. of .316. A bullet with less of a B.C. will even be a bigger spread:

AT 80* and 24.0 inHg (6000 ft.)
800 yds = Drop of -130.07" or 15.53 MOA
825 yds = Drop of -140.50" or 16.27 MOA

AT 30* and 29.92 inHg (sea level)
800 yds = Drop of -145.08" or 17.32 MOA
825 yds = Drop of -157.27" or 18.21 MOA

How do you go back and forth between yardage and Moa and then back to yardage to make any changes. Lets say you were only going to hunt at one elevation and just the weather would change the 50 degrees. There will be a miscalculation on your turret of 6". I understand you would probably have your turret made for a temp in the middle, but these temps are very realistic if you are going to use this rifle from August bear season to general deer in our state (most likely be hotter and colder).

Lets say we compound this error with a gun that can only shoot 1 MOA. That means there is 8" of error in the gun/shooter and 6" of error in the turret for a 14" impact from the aim point.

Another issue is the cosine value for shooting up or down but with todays range finders with true horizontal distance this is easily avoided.

All I am saying is that in my example there is over a 30" difference (and this is a premier bullet for long range hunting) between 25 yards with the hunting conditions I have stated.

All I am saying is that before people pick up a gun/scope combo with a CDS they need to know about all the variables before clicking around with their scope and shooting, especially before an animal is introduced.

I hunt or plan to hunt all over the place from Sea Level in the Willapa Hills to above 12,000 ft. in Colorado. I will never need another turret. Also to open a bigger can of worms how do you account for the 40" of drift with a full value viability VS a MIL-Quad adjustment system at the website "

So if what this guy is saying about elevations affect on bullet trajectory, then how on earth does one allow for it when if like me you will be doing all your shooting, zeroing and developing your drop compensating numbers out to 600 yards at less than 600 feet above see level then travel out west and hunt at elevations between 6000-9000' above see level?

What am I missing here? It seams the more I research the more confused I get. My plan on becoming proficient to 600 yards was to first develop the most accurate load for my rifle I could then begin systematically practicing at 100 yard intervals out to 600 yards ever so carefully documenting my loads performance along the way, then depending on the scope I buy reticle system's aiming points reference the dots as close to exact as possible to each aiming point. For example the open diamonds and solid hash marks of the SWFA's MIL-Quad system.

Would such drop compensation per scope marking that I would have confirmed accurate at my see level be rendered useless at the much higher see levels of the mountains out west?

Something tells me I am missing something here and panicking for nothing because if what I fear is so, then how would anyone be able to first sight in at below 1000' see level then shoot at 4-6x higher? I doubt that all the people using Mill-Dot or Mil-Quad scopes re-zero very time they go up significantly in elevation. Im guessing the entire purpose of Mill-Dot/Quad reticles multiple reference points are so you can shoot in any conditions you may ever encounter.

Like I said the more I research the more confused I'm getting.

 

[Axl]

Big difference between 600 and 800 yards. prob. less than 6" difference between the two examples that are cited at 600

 

[Mooseknuckles]

Couldn't you have two turrets made by using muzzle velocity, bullet weight and BC of the bullet for the two different elevation? Having one for say 1000 ft and another for 9000ft?
I'm not sure how much the zero on you rifle would change at 100 yards between the two elevation differences, but at 100 I wouldn't think it would be that much. I could be wrong. This is why is stick to the willapa hill.
Hey Jason.

 

[DartonJager]

Couldn't you have two turrets made by using muzzle velocity, bullet weight and BC of the bullet for the two different elevation? Having one for say 1000 ft and another for 9000ft?
I'm not sure how much the zero on you rifle would change at 100 yards between the two elevation differences, but at 100 I wouldn't think it would be that much. I could be wrong. This is why is stick to the willapa hill.
Hey Jason.

Good idea, wish I had thought of it, but a SWFA 3-12x42mm SFP scope on sale is basically the same price and I feel for my use it is a better all around scope

Thanks for the suggestion,
DJ.

 

[Mooseknuckles]

I have had the swfa 3x15 ffp it was a good scope. Just to let you euro optics has the 4x16x50 viper pst on sale right now. That's what I'm putting in my 300 win mag when it's done.
Have you been shooting at the PE ell gun club? Looking for a new place to shoot some long range.

 

[MallardAddict]

Mooseknuckles, where abouts in WA. Are you? Lots of my friends shoot at Upper Nisqually which has targets to 550yds. My range only has targets to 200 yds but is 20 minutes away and I have access to steel to 1500 an hour away on private land.

 

[Mooseknuckles]

I live in Raymond. My name is Brandon watts.
I was going to do the PRS shoots up there at upper nisqually but never did. We used to have two spots to a 1000 but the gates got closed.

 

[muleystalker]

I have had the swfa 3x15 ffp it was a good scope. Just to let you euro optics has the 4x16x50 viper pst on sale right now. That's what I'm putting in my 300 win mag when it's done.
Have you been shooting at the PE ell gun club? Looking for a new place to shoot some long range.

Just to let you know theSWFA 3-15 has way better glass than the 4-16 vortex pst. I have had 2 3-15 SWFA's and 3 4-16 pst's side buy side all at the same time with 6 different people looking through them glass quality was like night and day, especially above 8x.

 

[muleystalker]

Dartenjager, you are better off to just forgetting the dedicated yardage dials and just do your adjustments in in MOA or mil water ever your scope is. Most range finders that are worth a dam for LRH have some type of a ballistic program that will give you the yardage and then your click values to dial to, or you can use the reticle to hold over that value. Its less complicated that way. If your range finder does not do ballistic corrections you can either use an app on your cell phone and put in altitude and all other info and it will give you your elevation corrections, then you just dial the turret. or you can put info in computer and print range cards for different elevations and have the on hand, range , look on card for corrections and dial or use the reticle for the given hold over.
No extra cost to have custom turrets made for different yardages and different bullets. You can print different range cards if you want to us different bullets or on a phone app you just type in the new bullet choice.

Hope this helps,
Dave

PS. the SWFA 3-15 is a lot of scope for the money, about the best glass and scope you are going to get in that money and more. The SWFA HD 5-20x50 is a big jump up.

 

[HARPERC]

Could be wrong, but you seem to be putting a lot of pressure on yourself. Just a thought from across the threads you started.

I think we're all getting a bit of cabin fever.

Simplify where possible.

1) You seem satisfied with your rifle.
2) Scope seems to be where you get a little stuck, understandable, lots of options, expensive, passionate folks on all sides.
A) I think you decided SFP for the reticle. Good enough! SFP not absolutely but generally leads you to twisting knobs. Pick a reticle you like.
B) I'd skip the chrony, and shift money to the scope, at this point.
C) The only way to verify your drops is shoot them. The only way to verify your knobs is to twist them. Even top end scopes have lemons, that wont perform as advertised. I'm not saying there isn't a difference in overall quality, I'm saying you have to verify all of them.
D) Conditions change, there is no one size fits all. Without measuring inputs, you're guessing. You've stated a 600 yard limit, the closer you get, the better success you'll have without inputs.
E) Every system has it's limits, shoot a lot of targets this summer, and you will discover your maximum effective range.
F) You will foul it up-part of the learning process. Paralysis through analysis leads to the dark side.
G) Have fun!

 

[FEENIX]

Could be wrong, but you seem to be putting a lot of pressure on yourself. Just a thought from across the threads you started.

I think we're all getting a bit of cabin fever.

Simplify where possible.

1) You seem satisfied with your rifle.
2) Scope seems to be where you get a little stuck, understandable, lots of options, expensive, passionate folks on all sides.
A) I think you decided SFP for the reticle. Good enough! SFP not absolutely but generally leads you to twisting knobs. Pick a reticle you like.
B) I'd skip the chrony, and shift money to the scope, at this point.
C) The only way to verify your drops is shoot them. The only way to verify your knobs is to twist them. Even top end scopes have lemons, that wont perform as advertised. I'm not saying there isn't a difference in overall quality, I'm saying you have to verify all of them.
D) Conditions change, there is no one size fits all. Without measuring inputs, you're guessing. You've stated a 600 yard limit, the closer you get, the better success you'll have without inputs.
E) Every system has it's limits, shoot a lot of targets this summer, and you will discover your maximum effective range.
F) You will foul it up-part of the learning process. Paralysis through analysis leads to the dark side.
G) Have fun!

Very well said, LRH/S does NOT happen overnight, enjoy the learning process.

 

[MallardAddict]

Very well said, LRH/S does NOT happen overnight, enjoy the learning process.

Harper hit the nail on the head. It's nice to know your actual muzzle velocity but that is only one small piece of the puzzle and to me as long as you have a ball park speed that is all you need to start. Zero the gun and then start working out further. Most apps have a trajectory validation that will tweak your BC and velocity to make a drop chart for your rifle with your ammo at your elevation.

As Harper said at some point you will royally **** up a shot on target due to a bad wind call, yanked trigger etc. Anyone who says they haven't done it is lying! With a little practice 600 becomes a cake walk and 1k+ isn't that difficult at all with a good wind call.

The biggest piece of advice I can give you is work on good form and a routine that you will use for every shot. The best gun, best optics and best ammo isn't worth a **** if your form and routine changes shot to shot. Find what works for YOU and make a mental check list to follow every shot and watch how quickly your accuracy improves and your comfort level increases.

Long range shooters are just like car guys, very opinionated and very brand loyal. If you can wade through that they tend to be very eager to teach and help others. This is one of the few sports I know of that you can ask a few simple questions about a total strangers set up and virtually minutes later find yourself on the bench or prone in the dirt behind the owners 10k rifle firing his ammo just so you can see *** for yourself.

My biggest advice is ask questions and have fun.